Home          Santhiya          Gurmat Bodh          Gurmat Literature          Message Board          Multimedia          Contact
Welcome! Log In Create A New Profile



Posted by Arrow 
Re: Veganism
June 11, 2018 12:02PM
1.) You mean to say, 60% of world's agriculture goes for cows? You must be quoting some study of some scientific source, and you must not have done research of your own.
You mean there are more cows in dairy than humans in world? smiling smiley

If a cow eats 100 pounds, it means the milk it gives contains a lot of energy. Which means dairy gives a lot of concentrated energy. How can other food replace it? This is the reason that people who dont consume dairy, tend to eat lot of other stuff which causes obesity, dissatisfaction. While a dairy consumer remains satisfied with a glass of milk/some ghee, and is good to go for whole day!!
So getting rid of dairy will bring eating disorders, it has actually, people who dont consume ghee in diet, tend to eat more, and also tend to have weak joints, other diseases.
Also, there are more humans in world than cows, 100 pounds of food for single cow if removed, humans will need more agriculture to sustain.

So this is very weak or research that IF dairy gone, 60% of agriculture will come down, NO, nature tends to balance, other food will be needed in plate for humans, it will put more pressure on industry. Industry has always caused excessive agriculture, dairy is very small proportion of it. i.e why they introduced GMO, to have more produce for their products apart from dairy.

So karma remains same, removing dairy is not less sufering, suffering will always remain there for food. As more food for world = more farming

2.) Habitat destruction will remain in absence of dairy, because more agriculture will be needed to put food on large population of humans. equation remains similar.

3.) Child labor will become worse, if we bring down 60% agriculture going to dairy (although dont agree with this percentage). Also as i said, farming will remain similar to feed other type of food to people to bring same amount of energy in them as dairy. Also humans are more in number than cows.
if one cow gives 25 litres suppose on average, it can feed 25 people a day on average. But if you remove milk from diet of these people, they will need same amount of energy from other food which is not as concentrated in energy as milk. So industry will have to provide it, and it too will come from agriculture.

4.) Farming will never come down as already proved, fishe distruction will remain irrespective of dairy farming. So no point going there.

5.) A cow eats good amount of food to produce high energy milk. Can you eat same amount of food as whole to get that amount of energy? Same way how can you eat same amount of almonds compared to concentrated almond milk?
There is no replacement to milk. Dairy is too high in energy to keep one going for whole day.

6.) If we start thinking of welfare of whole world including cows/other species, we will waste time being in the world. The only way is that we follow Khalsa Rehit , Jap naam and reach brahm Gyan by Guru's Kirpra. yes compassion is needed, we need to be compassionate in direct involvement with any being. But indirect compassion can never be taken care of, need not be focussed upon.
Dairy has always been part of Sikhi, and will remain, and Sikhs will continue doing Bhagti instead of caring about veganisms or other isms who want to bring down povery, suffering etc in the world, and has never been successful everrr!!! The only way of ending suffering is to firstly end your own suffering inside you instead of worrying about world.

7.) Maybe you are not born in India, but Ghyo/Ghee only means clarified butter produced from cow/buffalow milk since centuries. Ask a person in village that what is Ghee, he will point that its pproduced from cow/buffalo milk.
Now there are people like you who want to label any other wax, plant oil /butter etc and label it as "Ghee". Guru Sahib didnt need to define Ghee as it was common sense then and even today that in Punjabi, Ghee is prepared from Cow/Buffalo milk. This has been a tradition. No one ever said that coconut oil is Ghee.

So if Degh prepared by Guru Sahib was from "Ghee", even today Khalsa will prepare it from Ghee!!
Others, non-Khalsa can do whatever they want.

8.) Ethical Viewpint (exploitation) : what you said makes no sense. Because if you focus on stopping exploiting other species, you will die of hunger, and also you wont be able to live as a normal human.

So you mean If Guru Sahib rides horse, he exploited it? People who did farming using animals exploited them? Now you will say times have changed, yes they have, but still exploitation remains same, it cant be eradicated. Now industries exploit animals if humans ride cars, or drive tractors.

Again those who keep focus in making world a better place instead of getting naam and doing Bhagti, will never be emancipated. there are thousands of activists wasting time for environment, saving animals etc, but instead they need to take them to Brahm Gyan awastha first, then they can save world around them in spiritual way.

If a sikh joins these activists, will not be able to do Bhagti. That is why Guru Sahib gave bare minimum Khalsa Rehit and then focus on Kamayee!!

9.) Sookhsham haumai remains till Karam Khand, not the big haumai like "i will change the world", that has to be left in very early awastha, actually that has to be left when one just takes Amrit and start Bhagti. So think about that. One needs to focus on one's limited time which only needs to be spent in Bhagti to rise above Maya.
Reply Quote TweetFacebook
Re: Veganism
June 13, 2018 11:51PM
While agreeing with the compassion concern about our food as a Sikh; I request to reread and consider the references to milk, ghee, buffalo and cows in Gurbani. Here are some PANKITIES.

Milk, Ghee in Guru Ka Langar

ਬਲਵੰਡ ਖੀਵੀ ਨੇਕ ਜਨ ਜਿਸੁ ਬਹੁਤੀ ਛਾਉ ਪਤ੍ਰਾਲੀ ॥
Balwand says that Khivi, the Guru's wife, is a noble woman, who gives soothing, leafy shade to all.

ਲੰਗਰਿ ਦਉਲਤਿ ਵੰਡੀਐ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਖੀਰਿ ਘਿਆਲੀ ॥
She distributes the bounty of the Guru's Langar; the kheer - the rice pudding and ghee, is like sweet ambrosia.

ਨਿਤ ਰਸੋਈ ਤੇਰੀਐ ਘਿਉ ਮੈਦਾ ਖਾਣੁ ॥
Your kitchen always has ghee and flour to eat.

Bhagat Dhana Ji praying to Akal Purakh for Milk and Ghee

ਗੋਪਾਲ ਤੇਰਾ ਆਰਤਾ ॥
O Lord of the world, this is Your lamp-lit worship service.
ਜੋ ਜਨ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰੰਤੇ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
You are the Arranger of the affairs of those humble beings who perform Your devotional worship service. ||1||Pause||
ਦਾਲਿ ਸੀਧਾ ਮਾਗਉ ਘੀਉ ॥
Lentils, flour and ghee - these things, I beg of You.
ਹਮਰਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਜੀਉ ॥
My mind shall ever be pleased.
ਪਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀਆ ਛਾਦਨੁ ਨੀਕਾ ॥
Shoes, fine clothes,
ਅਨਾਜੁ ਮਗਉ ਸਤ ਸੀ ਕਾ ॥੧॥
And grain of seven kinds - I beg of You. ||1||
ਗਊ ਭੈਸ ਮਗਉ ਲਾਵੇਰੀ ॥
A milk cow, and a water buffalo, I beg of You,
ਇਕ ਤਾਜਨਿ ਤੁਰੀ ਚੰਗੇਰੀ ॥
And a fine Turkestani horse.
ਘਰ ਕੀ ਗੀਹਨਿ ਚੰਗੀ ॥
A good wife to care for my home.
ਜਨੁ ਧੰਨਾ ਲੇਵੈ ਮੰਗੀ ॥੨॥੪॥
Your humble servant Dhanna begs for these things, Lord. ||2||4||
Reply Quote TweetFacebook
Re: Veganism
June 14, 2018 03:02AM
No one finds fault in Ghee and silk-----------------

ਘਿਅ ਪਟ ਭਾਂਡਾ ਕਹੈ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥
Ghia Patt Bhaanddaa Kehai N Koe ||
No one says that ghee or silk are polluted.

ਐਸਾ ਭਗਤੁ ਵਰਨ ਮਹਿ ਹੋਇ ॥
Aisaa Bhagath Varan Mehi Hoe ||
Such is the Lord's devotee, no matter what his social status is.

ਤੇਰੈ ਨਾਮਿ ਨਿਵੇ ਰਹੇ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥
Thaerai Naam Nivae Rehae Liv Laae ||
Those who bow in reverence to the Naam, the Name of the Lord, remain absorbed in Your Love.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤਿਨ ਦਰਿ ਭੀਖਿਆ ਪਾਇ ॥੩॥੧॥੨॥
Naanak Thin Dhar Bheekhiaa Paae ||3||1||2||
Nanak begs for charity at their door. ||3||1||2||

God drinks milk offered by Bhagat Nam Dev Ji

ਦੂਧੁ ਕਟੋਰੈ ਗਡਵੈ ਪਾਨੀ ॥
Dhoodhh Kattorai Gaddavai Paanee ||
Naam Dayv milked the brown cow,
ਕਪਲ ਗਾਇ ਨਾਮੈ ਦੁਹਿ ਆਨੀ ॥੧॥
Kapal Gaae Naamai Dhuhi Aanee ||1||
And brought a cup of milk and a jug of water to his family god. ||1||
ਦੂਧੁ ਪੀਉ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੇ ਰਾਇ ॥
Dhoodhh Peeo Gobindhae Raae ||
"Please drink this milk, O my Sovereign Lord God.
ਦੂਧੁ ਪੀਉ ਮੇਰੋ ਮਨੁ ਪਤੀਆਇ ॥
Dhoodhh Peeo Maero Man Patheeaae ||
Drink this milk and my mind will be happy.
ਨਾਹੀ ਤ ਘਰ ਕੋ ਬਾਪੁ ਰਿਸਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Naahee Th Ghar Ko Baap Risaae ||1|| Rehaao ||
Otherwise, my father will be angry with me.""||1||Pause||
ਸਦ਼ਇਨ ਕਟੋਰੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਭਰੀ ॥
Suoein Kattoree Anmrith Bharee ||
Taking the golden cup, Naam Dayv filled it with the ambrosial milk,
ਲੈ ਨਾਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਆਗੈ ਧਰੀ ॥੨॥
Lai Naamai Har Aagai Dhharee ||2||
And placed it before the Lord. ||2||
ਏਕੁ ਭਗਤੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਹਿਰਦੇ ਬਸੈ ॥
Eaek Bhagath Maerae Hiradhae Basai ||
The Lord looked upon Naam Dayv and smiled.
ਨਾਮੇ ਦੇਖਿ ਨਰਾਇਨੁ ਹਸੈ ॥੩॥
Naamae Dhaekh Naraaein Hasai ||3||
This one devotee abides within my heart.""||3||
ਦੂਧੁ ਪੀਆਇ ਭਗਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਗਇਆ ॥
Dhoodhh Peeaae Bhagath Ghar Gaeiaa ||
The Lord drank the milk, and the devotee returned home.
ਨਾਮੇ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਭਇਆ ॥੪॥੩॥
Naamae Har Kaa Dharasan Bhaeiaa ||4||3||
Thus did Naam Dayv come to receive the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan. ||4||3||

Milch animals are better than human beings if-------

ਪਸੂ ਮਿਲਹਿ ਚੰਗਿਆਈਆ ਖੜੁ ਖਾਵਹਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਦੇਹਿ ॥
Pasoo Milehi Changiaaeeaa Kharr Khaavehi Anmrith Dhaehi ||
Even beasts have value, as they eat grass and give milk.

ਨਾਮ ਵਿਹੂਣੇ ਆਦਮੀ ਧ੍ਰਿਗੁ ਜੀਵਣ ਕਰਮ ਕਰੇਹਿ ॥੩॥
Naam Vihoonae Aadhamee Dhhrig Jeevan Karam Karaehi ||3||
Without the Naam, the mortal's life is cursed, as are the actions he performs. ||3||
Reply Quote TweetFacebook
Re: Veganism
June 23, 2018 08:01AM
There are 1 billion cows on this planet and 7 billion humans on this planet. One example, in the US alone, 7 billion animals (including cows) consume five times as much grain as is consumed directly by the entire American population.

Vegans obtain enough energy without consumption of animals and their excretions. Where do you suppose cows obtain their energy? From grass, grain etc. A vegan just goes directly to the source. Starchy foods, greens, protein based foods (such as soy, beans, lentils, quinoa, nuts etc), fruits etc all provide enough energy. By not eating one thing, does not mean you need to eat something else to make up for the one thing you are not eating. Humans were not created with the idea that they cannot survive without consuming other animals and their excretions. Other animals do not do this. A Giraffe will not consume the milk of a cow. Cows were created to feed their milk to their calves, just as human milk is for humans only.

The fact that you said those who do not consume diary become obese shows that you have done no research. The western diet causes obesity. Studies have already shown that dairy, egg and meat are the number one cause of obesity, as they all contain bad fats – saturated fats and LDL cholesterol.

If no more animals are bred into existence then the percentage of food that was going to animals will go down, whatever percentage remains will still be enough to go towards other humans around the world living in poorer conditions, enough to feed billions. Research has already been done on this. If 60% or higher of food (corn/oat/grain) is going to livestock, and is reduced once there is no livestock, then there will be less child labour. In addition, child labour exists now because people lack empathy to exploitation. If more people went vegan, people will be more sensitive to exploitation of all species, including humans.

The food agriculture will be sustainable, as no more lands will be destroyed for the sake of livestock. With plants alone no more land will be needed but will be sustained, in addition we can have vertical farming which is only possible with plants, not animals. A lot of improvements are being made with plant agriculture such as reducing space, need of sunlight etc which you cannot do with animals.

Are you aware that cows and chickens are genetically modified? Cows are modified to produce more milk than natural (their udders are bigger than normal as well) and Chickens lay more eggs than natural. Baby female cows also have their horns removed and acid is poured on their head to prevent growth of them. None of these animals are natural. They are all bred into existence to become domesticated animals that can only rely on humans to survive. There is more suffering and death in the dairy and Egg Industry than in the meat industry. Have you heard of Cannulated cows? This only exists now because people like yourself see them as machines to give you food.

You should be doing naam jap wherever you are. The problem is that when you say “I will change the world”, you are seeing it from your own position, which is egotistic. You are concerned with your status and deed, not the actual concern. For example, when you do charity you should not care about the deed of charity and the reward but why it will help the people concerned. If one does naam jap for people not to suffer and to be liberated, that is because that person is looking at it from the sufferers position. What is your concern for child labour if it all leads to haumai. In this case, we should not care for anyone. If you see someone being harmed do not help them as it is haumai according to you.

By being a Vegan, you can only move forward. By you saying we should continue to do all wrong that way we are doing right makes no sense. The more people become sensitive, the less harm will be caused.

You wish to live in a world where beings are still oppressed. Whereas Veganism is a movement for change. In the current world no one cares for humans that is why you have workers in poor conditions and child labour. In a Vegan world, 100% chance of all this ending, as people are deciding to make a conscious choice to not cause suffering and death onto beings we otherwise see no value in. With Veganism you are shifting your mentality to care for every specie directly caused by you.

Veganism means not to buy a product that has no animal suffering in the world we currently live in. For example, buy a shampoo that has no animal testing and no animal ingredients. This is practical in the current world even where Veganism is a minority. Now, in a vegan world there would be more transparency on the process of production as people will be more conscious buyers. Child labour will not even exist in a Vegan world. It will take a while to lead to this but it will happen eventually. It will be more of an ethical world.

All scientific facts including unbiased prove the opposite of your claim because animal agriculture is the reason for the most damage done to the environment. So there is no need to continue with this argument.

You seem to easily throw up claims based on your own mat which has no research to back it up. But then if we provide it you reject it but then continue to use your own mat which has no evidence. This discussion is pointless, as you continue to go in circles without research and understanding any point made. And continue to make your immoral point - bad happens anyway so we should continue all bad.

MB Singh:

I will address the shabads with the titles you provided.

Milk, Ghee in Guru Ka Langar

Firstly, we are aware that in Guru Sahib’s time Sikhs consumed milk and rode horses. But even then we are not sure the source of Ghee was always from Cow milk, does not mean they always had access to a cow. Ghee could have come from a plant source too.

Secondly, Mata Khivee would have made the food with minimal harm. If milk was used to produce the ghee, it would have been obtained from the cow without causing the animal pain. Nowadays, it is pointless to use animals because we have many alternatives.

Thirdly, if a manmukh made rice pudding and ghee, would it become like amrit? No, because that person has no naam avasta. That’s why it was like amrit when Mata Khivee made it.

Lastly, a kitchen can contain a ghee, planted based ghee. For ghee to always be in a kitchen might not be possible for its source to always be from milk. Once a cow gives birth it can only produce milk for 10 months. So, Ghee could have come from a plant source too.

Even if a kitchen does not have ghee, does it make the owner of the kitchen a bad person?

Bhagat Dhana Ji praying to Akal Purakh for Milk and Ghee

This shabad proves that the requirements of resources needed to survive is based on time period. Bhagat Dhanna Jee asks for a horse too beside a cow and water buffalo. We would not ask for a horse now, because we have other means of transport.

An amusing point is that Bhagat Dhanna Jee asks for Ghee separately from a dairy cow. That is like asking for roti and then asking for flour. In that one line, it mentions raw ingredients like lentils, flour and then ghee.

No one finds fault in Ghee and silk

In regards to Silk, are you suggesting we continue to boil cocoons to kill moth when we can wear alternative clothes. No one found fault in Guru Sahib’s time as everyone was focused on surviving. In addition to this, no one questioned exploitation of animals (which will be explained further below). In addition to this, we are not living in their life. We use mobile phones, computers, cars etc and we are trying to compare our life style to theirs. We cannot selectively pick on what to mimic.

Milch animals are better than human beings if…

A human is capable of obtaining and doing naam jap. An animal is not. But the animal has value because it allows its children to survive and grow by offering it amrit (milk). That’s the value of the animal. The human cannot offer anything of value to anyone, because his actions are not parvaan and are impure because he is able to jap naam but does not. A human life is given to jap naam and find Vaheguru, an animal’s life is not.

God drinks milk offered by Bhagat Nam Dev Ji

A minor point to make, in the shabad it calls milk amrit. In the same line, it says the cup of the milk is made out of gold. Bhagat Nam Dev Jee would not have access to gold. Bhagat Nam Dev Jee was not from a rich family. So the cup was not gold. But because the offering was for Vaheguru and it came from a Gurmukh. The cup appeared as gold and the milk amrit. But if you are adamant to believe it was gold, shouldn't we also begin to give value to gold.

To the main point, Bhagat Naam Dev Jee is more innocent than any current day Sikh. Of course no suffering was caused by his hands - the cow would have been milked compassionately. Also, milking a cow has occurred for yuga. Even in previous yuga, people milked cows for people. It has been the norm for ages. So it was part of culture. The idea of exploitation would not even crop up in anyone’s mind. They will only realise it once they see an animal suffering because of it.

Veganism would not have existed if we did not see animals that are being exploited suffer. Once that happened it was obvious that Veganism should exist because humans, again as I said before, cannot be trusted. Most of these vegan activists were probably those animals that suffered in their previous life, this is why it is so strongly engraved in their mind that they become activists.

Also, we are not Hindus. We do not give a spiritual value to a cow. The milk obtained from a cow is not holy and is not necessary as a holy ingredient for Degh. Degh itself is holy. And ghee can come from a plant source.

Gurbani is not always blunt on right and wrong. Gurbani does not state we must not commit murder, rape, paedophilia, slavery etc. We have to use our Bibek Budh, a part of that is Compassion.

The obsession that Sikhs have with using a Cow to obtain milk is disgusting, that kind of behaviour makes the relationship with the cow exploitive and not compassionate. Otherwise the Sikhs would have been more open minded, but they are too attached to cows for their body. A using nature is cruel.

After this, if I do not see any substance in comments I will not continue posting. With some of the members it goes around in circles.
Reply Quote TweetFacebook
Re: Veganism
June 25, 2018 01:21PM
Arrow :
Stop defining Ghee. Every Indian knows what it is and from where it comes.
There has been too much discussion, there are no solid points which prove that vegan food includes less suffering. A food which vegan eats can be full of sins too as Guru Sahib had squeezed blood out of Roti even.

Khalsa should keep Bibek, prepare food from raw ingredients. Need not go in detail that from where is the raw ingredient coming, as its impossible to trace sins coming in raw ingredient. We should prepare our food in Sarbloh in bibeki way. Thats all, rest all of the time we should do Bhagti.

Aim of Khalsa is not to end suffering of beings around, but to end suffering of its own and reach Sachkhand. Daya as already explained, needs to be shown in direct encounter with any being. If i brought grains from Hitler, and cook them in Sarbloh to make roti, that wont affect me. Same way if i bought milk from a bad farmer, and consumed it through Sarbloh, that is acceptable. I need not care how he treated cow, thats his karma not mine. Same way, we cannot take care of indirect actions, but direct actions only.

This is what Khalsa Rehit has been always. Raw ingredients can be taken from any one without caring from whom we are buying.

Of course, Khalsa need not care what a dairy farmer is doing with cows when he drinks milk, Khalsa doesnt need to care how a farmer misused labor to provide wheat, when he eats roti. But yes, Khalsa needs to do lot of Bhagti, and make oneself ready to participate in bringing Khalsa Raaj, which will bring compassionate farming all around.

So not doing Bhagti, but wasting time in movements like veganism, global warming etc, is wasting ones own life, the Golden Chance of reaching waheguru and serving Waheguru later in Khalsa Raaj. All those people busy in such movements like ending poverty, preventing animals, preventing suffering around to beings, etc....are completely wasting their lifetime, they thing they are scoring points being a great human being. But they dont know that Akaal Purakh can only be happy if one does bhagti, no other way. Adharm will end, when Khalsa Raaj will come, and if one wants to participate in ending Adharm, one needs to do Bhagti and be capable in eyes of Akaal Purakh. But doing any other actions, is manmat!!!!!!
Gurmat is very clear. Follow rehit and do bhagti. Rehit cannot be changed!!
Stop spreading manmat.

I think admin should conclude and close this thread.

Waheguru G Ka Khalsa
Waheguru G Ki Fateh
Reply Quote TweetFacebook
Re: Veganism
June 27, 2018 08:25AM
just wanted to add one more point, about your "research"

You mention keywords like "western research", that research or this research, from where you bring gyan and quote numbers. We dont believe in any western research or any Gyan, any Cholestrol, blah blah...you created a ong story all out of scientific numbers and hypothesis....
Poverty, suffering has been on this planet from such a long time, no scientific measure or any research has been able to bring it down, it can never, because its all Karm based system on this planet, run by Akal Purakh.
We dont believe reasons told by west for obesity, heart disease etc.....Singhs are consuming Ghee from ages, and been fit and non-obesese. Only those people are sick who eat outside food/processed food. This is the Gurmat reason, non bibeki food brings sickness. smiling smiley

Whole essay you wrote is sceintific research, veganism itself is an agenda of west based on poor knowledge of "purpose of life".

Singhs have nothing to do with scientific reasonsing/research. They live Gurmat way, flat !!!!
Reply Quote TweetFacebook
Re: Veganism
June 27, 2018 11:45AM
"if I do not see any substance in comments I will not continue posting. With some of the members it goes around in circles."

We are not posting here to convince you, we reply here for other readers, so that they remain clear about Gurmat and not get attracted to some people who follow the "science and its reasoning" as their Guru.
So who cares if you reply or you dont, the message outgoing from this thread to people seeking Gurmat is more important, so we are trying to add Gurmat points against your misleading scientific stuff or agenda smiling smiley.
Reply Quote TweetFacebook
Re: Veganism
June 27, 2018 03:40PM
Now lets talk about research from Gurubani, as we only believe in Gurbani :

ਨਦੀਆ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਧੇਣਵਾ ਸੁੰਮ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਦੁਧੁ ਘੀਉ ॥

If the rivers became cows, giving milk, and the spring water became milk and ghee;

Milk and Ghee mentioned together means, Gurbani talks about Ghee which of course is obtained from Milk since ages.

ਸਗਲ ਬਨਸਪਤਿ ਮਹਿ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਦੂਧ ਮਹਿ ਘੀਆ ॥

Fire is contained in all firewood, and butter is contained in all milk.

Gurbani prooves clearly that Ghee is obtained from milk. Can you quote that Ghee can be taken from plants? Quote from Gurbani.

Here comes another :

ਘ੍ਰਿਤ ਕਾਰਨ ਦਧਿ ਮਥੈ ਸਇਆਨ ॥

For the sake of ghee, wise people churn milk.

Guru Sahib says that milk is churned to obtain ghee, any doubt? Does Guru Sahib anywhere mention Ghee from plants? Quote then.

How Ghee makes food and Degh Amrit when it is poured :

ਅੰਨੁ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਲੂਣੁ ਪੰਜਵਾ ਪਾਇਆ ਘਿਰਤੁ ॥

The corn is sacred, the water is sacred; the fire and salt are sacred as well; when the fifth thing, the ghee, is added,

ਤਾ ਹੋਆ ਪਾਕੁ ਪਵਿਤੁ ॥

Then the food becomes pure and sanctified.

Why does food become pure adding Ghee, why Guru Sahib mentions this again and again that Ghee is paak, pavittar. It makes food pure

ਕਬਹੂ ਖੀਰਿ ਖਾਡ ਘੀਉ ਨ ਭਾਵੈ ॥

Sometimes, people do not appreciate milk, sugar and ghee.

Look Kabir jee also asking for Ghee ike Dhanna jee :

ਦੁਇ ਸੇਰ ਮਾਂਗਉ ਚੂਨਾ ॥
I ask for two kilos of flour,

ਪਾਉ ਘੀਉ ਸੰਗਿ ਲੂਨਾ ॥
And half a pound of ghee, and salt.

ਅਧ ਸੇਰੁ ਮਾਂਗਉ ਦਾਲੇ ॥
I ask for a pound of beans,

Why Ghee was so important? and that too half pound, thats a lot!! He could have skipped it, its because its important part of diet for Bhagti. One needs energy to do lound naam abhyaas, and read a lot of Gurbaani.

Now let come back again at BHagaat Dhanna jee's ask :

ਦਾਲਿ ਸੀਧਾ ਮਾਗਉ ਘੀਉ ॥
Lentils, flour and ghee - these things, I beg of You.
ਹਮਰਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਜੀਉ ॥
My mind shall ever be pleased.
ਪਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀਆ ਛਾਦਨੁ ਨੀਕਾ ॥
Shoes, fine clothes,
ਅਨਾਜੁ ਮਗਉ ਸਤ ਸੀ ਕਾ ॥੧॥
And grain of seven kinds - I beg of You. ||1||
ਗਊ ਭੈਸ ਮਗਉ ਲਾਵੇਰੀ ॥
A milk cow, and a water buffalo, I beg of You,
ਇਕ ਤਾਜਨਿ ਤੁਰੀ ਚੰਗੇਰੀ ॥
And a fine Turkestani horse.

First he asks for flour and Ghee as ingredients of food, he begs for it. Then he asks for source of both of these, floor--> Anaaj, Ghee--> Cow. Why, he just goes in further detail and asks for more..... Whats the problem in that? its like opening more and asking big things as we start demanding from simple materials.
He asks for horse, but that's a transport, its nothing to do with food. modes of transport have nothing to do with reaching waheguru. Bhut Diet has!!! common sense, bibek budhi. You should know that learning Horse Riding is part of hukams of Guru Sahib! He didnt know that it will be outdated?

ਸਦ਼ਇਨ ਕਟੋਰੀ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਭਰੀ ॥
Suoein Kattoree Anmrith Bharee ||
Taking the golden cup, Naam Dayv filled it with the ambrosial milk,

Now your comment on this, yes Namdev ji can have access to Gold. Why not, how do you know that he didnt have? A naam Abhyaasi can have access to anything, depending upon awastha, even to Gold, diamonds. If Gurbani says that he used golden cup, then he did. Why you have problem with that? Yes Gold is valuable, if it is being used to express love to Waheguru instead of decorating oneself or treating it as one's wealth. Sikh does his best for his Guru, Waheguru. Guru Gobind Singh jee was not against Gold, he used to get gifts having Gold Embroidery etc....but he was Guru. We can possess Gold if we want to use it for Khalsa Karaj, or for chardi kala of khalsa.

The shabad clearly says milk is Amrit. No how can milk be taken compassionately? it belongs to the calf, calf is separated and then milk is taken. Now you will say its compassionate compared to today, but well did God not know that calf was separated to get milk from cow? Because in olden times cow gave that much milk as needed for calf. How can God take such milk? Which means God accepted milk which had suffering. Because humans are allowed to take milk of animals, which you vegans are against. This Shabad prooves it. Now how much compassion is there, it changed with time. I am sure God will take milk even today, if we offer in Sarbloh, irrespective of the fact that it came from discriminated cow. It just depends who is offering the milk.

Gurbaani clearly says that Ghee is pavittar and it makes food pavitter when used. No one ensured how wheat or sugar (which mmostly people bought from shop even in old times) have been produced, did they arrive on plate from field of farmer who has killed thousand of people for his business needs, how paapi is that farmer, no one knows. Same applies to milk as ingredient.

When i told you that speices are killed in farming, the wheat you have on plate has sufferings, then you didnt get the point, you just ignored it, and started explaining that dairy farming causes more land being used in agriculture. But you didnt get the main point. It means you dont want to listen, it has been proved that food has suffering always. No one can get rid of it.

WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN THIS BODY TO END OUR SUFFERING, but if we start bothering about suffering of beings around the world, life wasted. We cannot end their suffering because world is run by Waheguru. Its foolishness and ego to think about bringing change in world until we have reached the awastha when we can serve Waheguru or Waheguru itself takes sewa from us. We can change world only if Singhs bring Khalsa Raaj, thats the only way of doing good to human beings and other beings. But for that we need to do a lot of bhagti , instead of studying veganisms or other isms created by manmukhs, we need to focus on primary Goal which is keeping rehit and reaching waheguru. When considerable Group of such singhs will exist in this world, those days will come. So Singh should aim to be one of them, instead of wasting time in such trivial issues of world.

Who says in old times, suffering was not there, if not to animals, humans were suffering so much. Auranghzeb, Babar etc, they were doing so much suffering, but Guru Sahib acted only when right time came, most of the time Guru Sahib remained Dormant, spread Sikhi, gave naam to people instead of ending poverty or outspread diseases. And that too was done to selective people, rest of the people kept on suffering because of their karma, few lucky ones were liberated, again because of their good karma of previous lives.

Same applies today, Khalsa needs to become divine with Bhagtti, all other sufferings of beings, which are to be ended and which not, and when are to be ended, Waheguru knows. We should only do one thing, be compassionate to all beings when we deal with them (of course direct dealing). But if others are doing paap, we cannot stop them, or we cannot stop eating needed diet because of that. But we just need to follow rehit, that way minimal bad karms will be created, which always remain.

So Ghee is important, proven, Gurbani says iclearly that it makes food Amrit. And Gurbani also says that its obtained from milk. That is why Bhagats demand Ghee. Now what is your point? Talk about this now. Nothing can replace it, Guru Sahib specifically introduced it, while there have been so many rich foods around, but he chose Ghee for degh, no other oil. You cannot ignore that. So its puratan maryada, which many singhs folowed and reached waheguru, we should do the same.
Reply Quote TweetFacebook
Re: Veganism
June 27, 2018 03:51PM
ਬਲਵੰਡ ਖੀਵੀ ਨੇਕ ਜਨ ਜਿਸੁ ਬਹੁਤੀ ਛਾਉ ਪਤ੍ਰਾਲੀ ॥
Balwand says that Khivi, the Guru's wife, is a noble woman, who gives soothing, leafy shade to all.

ਲੰਗਰਿ ਦਉਲਤਿ ਵੰਡੀਐ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਖੀਰਿ ਘਿਆਲੀ ॥
She distributes the bounty of the Guru's Langar; the kheer - the rice pudding and ghee, is like sweet ambrosia.

ਨਿਤ ਰਸੋਈ ਤੇਰੀਐ ਘਿਉ ਮੈਦਾ ਖਾਣੁ ॥
Your kitchen always has ghee and flour to eat.

you ignored the fact in above panktis that Ghee is used in cooking amrit food, such a simple explanation. It says that Ghee is part of Amrit Bhojan, and also i gave you pankti in my last post that after Ghee is poured, food becomes Amrit. mata Khiwi ji, naam abhyaasi, poured Ghee+naam+milk to prepare amrit, which means Ghee is important ingredient of it. Whenever Gurbani talks about food, of course food prepared by Gurmukh. if naam is missing of course it wont be Amrit food. like the degh prepared by manmukh is not amrit!! but that doesnt mean Ghee is not important part of Degh, it is Amrit too but only when Gurmukh uses it. its important part of Gurmukh's diet, above panktis clearly tell that.
You didnt even focus on pankitis, but reflected your own doubts about such clear lines "cow needs 10 months to give milk" "kitchen having no ghee makes owner bad person" etc etc...what does it have to do with above Pankitis? which give clear message that JHKiwi jee used Ghee in langar to make it Amrit!! This shows your ignorance, you dont want to listen to Gurubani, you are biased.
Reply Quote TweetFacebook
Re: Veganism
July 08, 2018 08:01AM
Yes, let’s say according to Gurbani ghee from Degh has to be sourced only from milk. If a Gursikh wants to be vegan it will not be a hindrance to our journey to Saachkhand. Not accepting Degh because you view the exploitation of animals as immoral is not bad. In this current day, I do not agree with exploiting animals as it is not necessary.

Now, all the current Sikhs that consume dairy in any shape or form you are directly paying for the mother cow to suffer, for her male calf to be killed and then for the spent mother to be killed. This is only happening because you are paying for it to happen. You cannot use Sikhi to contribute to evil.

If your source of food is going to come from a sentient being you have to be morally responsible for that sentient being. You keep on using the Shabad by Bhagat Dhanna Jee where he begs for a water buffalo and dairy cow, yet you do not practice this yourself. If you want to be morally responsible for the sentient being you will buy the dairy cow and a buffalo. Allow them to naturally mate, then keep the calf. Look after them and feed them, allow all of them to die from natural death. Otherwise, if you do not do this you are not following the shabad yourself and are directly paying for the animals to suffer and be killed, all of which is punishable for a person who is aware of this.
Reply Quote TweetFacebook
Re: Veganism
July 09, 2018 03:03PM
Degh "prepared with full Maryada" is "Kirpan Bhent", an offering from Guru Sahib. How can Khalsa not take it. Its a Maryada. How can one go to Sachkhand by not following this Maryada. How can someone go to Sachkhand by saying no to Guru's offering, its ego.
Degh Tegh Fateh!!! it has got some meaning. Degh and Tegh bring Fateh. Consuming Degh brings Chardi Kala, provided its prepared with maryada. Again, who indulge in Naam Abhyaas, can know its importance.

There is some meaning to Degh, that is why it was brought in by Guru Sahib, even during Amrit Sanchaar. Will you say no to Degh during Amrit Sanchaar? Ponder oven this and answer. After taking Amrit, do you have courage to say no to Degh from Punj Pyaarey? How can a Sikh say not to Guru's offering, by saying that flour came from bad mill, milk came from bad dairy etc etc...

Though even then, already explained to you that food ingredients always have suffering, as we dont know from where they came, like whether from good dairy or bad dairy....good farmer or bad farmer....or how many beings suffered to bring that ingredient. All Khalsa care is that take those ingredients and prepare food with Maryada, then its Amrit food. thats it!!

Yes, about Dhanna g's Shabad, i too would to ask God that please give me Ghee, Milk, Degh, there should be no shortage. Bhagat Dhanna g is asking for it because he doesnt want to be short of all this. He asked for cow too, his own cow, so that he is never short of Milk as it was not sold in those days. He wants to keep cow to take calf's milk, he knows its not compassionate, but he needs milk, so he separates calf from cow to get it, even though this milk cow is giving, is not for him. So he kind of uses the cow for his needs. Also, Gurbani never says that you cannot take milk from second person. Gurbani only mentions that milk and Ghee are Amrit and make food Amrit. Even though taking milk of an animal as per a vegan, is not ethical!!, But Gurbani says milk and Ghee are Amrit.

Again you talk about suffering of beings around, we already discussed that if a dairy farmer is not good, we need not stop consuming milk, same way like if a wheat farmer is paapi, we dont stop consuming wheat. But if i am a dairy farmer, and i do paap of mistreating animal, then i am accountable for it, and it will affect my spirituality. But i need not take care from where raw ingredients are coming, i need to stop there and spend rest of time on bhagti.

Even if i keep a cow, to remove second person, what about other food? How to trace source of other foods and their purity? its impossible, just Guru Sahib has given us rehit to make it simple. Way of Food preparation removes bad karma in food, i.e Khalsa way of food preparation makes the food Amrit, irrespective of source of its ingredients. So that is why, its not a concern.

AGAIN : The compassion to save whole world is of no use. It means one is doing actions to bring justice around the world, while there is a lot to do in one's own self. This Deh/body is a Dharmshala, the only hukam/dharm on this planet is to Jap naam, reach Sachkhand, be jeevan mukt. Only such people can bring change in world. So only such Khalsa can bring dharm in world, only such Khalsa can end suffering in world. So Akal Purakh wants us to become his Khalsa first, instead of worrying about other beings around. If we make ourself such Khalsa with intense Bhagti, then we are candidate to work towards Khalsa Raaj....then we can participate in bringing justice in this world, because Akal Purakh will work through us.

Until then, no other action is of any use, its waste. Until then its all ego, as one's own self is not pure, and one is trying to save the world. SO just focus on keeping Khalsa Rehit, and Bhagti, dont worry about rest of the world, its being run by Akaal Purakh. Just follow what Guru Sahib told, cook your food Khalsa way, and do Bhagti. that is it.
Reply Quote TweetFacebook
Re: Veganism
July 09, 2018 11:38PM
Arrow Ji

Following is my observation about your arguments:

Kise kamm nahi aauni tuhadi Veganism. Niri haumai hor kuch nahi.
Reply Quote TweetFacebook
Re: Veganism
July 10, 2018 12:19PM
Guru Nanak kirpa,
Khalsa consumption of milk releases cows from janam maran is my toree matt understanding?
bhul chuk muaf Vahiguroo atey Guru Pyareo Jio_/\_
Reply Quote TweetFacebook
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.

Click here to login