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Understanding Gurubaani brings spiritual elevation, or Spiritual Elevation brings real understanding.

Posted by jatinder_singh 
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Daas just joined the forum. Some really nice discussions, deep ones here. Long story how i reached here, but for sure Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh ji brought me here, and i came to know AKJ too. I am excited to enter this new world, starting to learn.

I always think, everywhere there is so much vichaar, arguments about Gurbaani meanings. There is so many Teekas, with different meanings, and we curiously read so much stuff. We try to gain understanding of Gurubaani this way.

Does this bring ego?
Does this not bias us? Because this is not our experience, but Author's experience. (i am so biased at present smiling smiley as i have read lot of stuff too like modern day sikhs)
If we remain stuck in doing vichaars, and basis of our vichaar is not our own experience but just the read books, will this elevate our spiritual progress?
Did Gurumukhs who reached waheguru, or were brahmgyanis, did they spend time reading literature or focussed just on kamayee of Gurubaani/naam? Did Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee read literature, teekas or just focussed on kamayee?

Though, the header of this webpage clearly gives the message of Gurubaani, but still so much of vichaar is going on in Sikh world today, even right now i am initiating a vichaaar smiling smiley ..... perhaps those who have Kirpa, they just do the kamayee of Guru Sahib's Bachan, and dont indulge in a lot of vichaar?
Guru Sahib Saadey te vee Kirpa karan.

Another point that comes in my mind is, that why is so much of preaching of Sikhi happening? Should Sikhi be preached? Reading Bhai Sahib's book, i never felt there was any parchaar at that time, they just travelled, did Kirtan at various places, and Naam was spreading whereever Kirtan was done, Amrit Sanchaars were happening. Just Kirtan, no lectures. Looks like same is needed today, but we have become scholars, everyone wants a stage, whether internet, or actual stage, and wants to tell people about Sikhi.

Sometimes i feel that no one has right to spread Sikhi, until one reaches a spiritual stage, where Guru Sahib himself gives hukam to Sikh for Panthic activity. Such sacheyaar sikh, like Bhai Sahib can really create impact in Sikh world. Until then, one should only do Bandagi, chup chaap just do Bandagi and not waste time.

Please give your views.
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You make some good points Veer Ji. I agree with some but disagree with others.

Books where not as prevalent during those times because the printing press was not easily accessible in South East Asia the most easiest and available form of print could have been accessed in China. But I dont think it was needed in Punjab. When Sikhi came into existence there was no need for dozens and dozens of books.But as years went down Sikhi got distorted and the oral knowledge of SIkhi became diminished. This is when print became prevalent in the panth especially during the Singh Sabha movement where Sikhi was getting distorted and being regarded as another sect of Hinduism. This time period is where we have most Sikh literature.

I dont think Guru Sahib was against books or teekas. Gursikhs who were contemporaries of Guru Sahib ( Bhai Mani Singh, Bhai Gurdas Ji, Bhai Nand Lal Ji, etc) wrote on Sikhi. In the book Gurmat Gaurvita Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh ji also mentions the benefit of reading spiritual books. Bhai Sahib himself has written dozens of books. Spiritual books bring bliss not the same bliss as naam abhyiaas or sadh sangat but they still bring bliss.

I dont think Gurmat literacy is a bad thing especially at a time when preachers think they have a patent on Sikhi and parchar of Sikhi. I think there is less Gursikhs reading and trying to educate themselves about Gurmat and this may be the reason people do not feel motivated to live a Gursikh jeevan. I dont think you need Gurmat literacy for Gurmat Kamaee as there is plenty of examples of uneducated Gursikhs reaching high spiritual levels. But for some literacy can aide. Its not so black and white everyone has there own cup of tea.

I dont think Jatha or any gursikhs did parchar to the extent that we do today copying the Christians. I also see a concern of young Gursikhs not getting married in the purpose of full-time parchar. A person should live a practical Sikh jeevan if they are going to teach others how to live Sikhi. Young Sikhs never did parchar in the past. The manji system did not have any unmarried youth nor did the Buddha Dal ( group dedicated to Gurmat Parchar) The term Buddha refers to elderly as it was the elderly Naam Abhyiaas Gurmukhs who did parchar. The young Sikhs part of the Taruna Dal ( Army of Youth) were on the front line battle field. The young teaching about SIkhi is not necessarily a bad thing even though it was not done in the past. Nowadays the young are turning away from Sikhi because of the hypocrisy of the adults so they need someone in their age group to get the message across.
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Suthra Singh jee,

To some extent you are right, books are one media through which message can be conveyed. Similar are other media like internet, TV etc. I find it very luring, all these media, they lure you into wanting more and more. People like me, who live in dubidha (duality), want reassurance all the time, so i read one book, watch one video, want more and more, hoping reassurance will come one day, and i will start doing bandagi as Gurmukhs did in past. But yes, while going through all this, if there is something which has started building inside me, which is taking me closer to true path, i.e Bhakti, just keeping tek (support) of naam, then we can say that it all worked!! Or actually Akaal Purkh works in so many ways to make one Bhakt if its the fortune of that person.

So we can simply say, that whoever has bhaag (good fortune), will get inspired in right direction through media.
While, if i keep gaining a lot of stuff from media all my life, i can just end up lost in Hankaar/ego of my "knowledge by information". Again, it will be my bad fortune, as it was meant to be like this by will of Waheguru.

Even though BHANA : But there is one important point, we have lost spiritual essence of Sikhi, as we all know. Result is that there is huge effort on samagams, book releases, organizations, seminaars, discussions on media, which are trying to spread "information" about Sikhi around the world. There is so much panic that Sikhi is getting lost, we need to do something. Lot of argument on what is Gurmat, the audience perceives ideas about Sikhi from all this "information", but still far from true essence. While some after years of information gathering, think that they have become something, and now its time to spread the message smiling smiley ....while they had to start abhyaas and take it to huge heights, meet waheguru, and get directions on sewa of Panth if Guru Sahib wants, maybe Guru Sahib just wants to continue Bandagi as the only sewa.

What i feel deeply is, that a Gurmukh progressing in naam, will get quiet, quieter, because that Gurumukh will seek all answers in naam, he has left the stage when he/she was finding all answers in media. I think, such Gurmukh if by tek of naam reaches an awastha (spiritual state), as it has been seen in old Gurmukhs, they just by their Sangat spread Sikhi. They just by their presence, touch hearts in sangat, and spread naam. This i believe is true essence of spreading Sikhi, spreading naam. Whereever they go and sit, just their presence sows seeds of sikhi/naam there. Like Bhai sahib spread naam even in jails. Now this is how true Sikhi spreads, as it creates true spiritual sikhs. This feels like right direction.

All contemporaries you mentioned, were Gurumukhs who were at some spiritual heights, and i feel Guru Sahib blessed them to do sewa of writing books. But should we claim anything in media, even write our vichaars until we have not reached that stage of Darshan? Or should we reamain quiet, i think even in ANAND SAHIB, guru sahib tells us to "Bahuta Nahee Bolna".......But we are talking so much in media, will all this work?
Like even Guru sahib says :

"Awar Kaaj Tere Kachu Naa Kaam, Mil Saadh Sangat Bhaj Kewal Naam"

Is it not like that we know nothing yet, but still we want to tell a lot.

Best thing looks like that we should go to sangat and jap naam, dont talk a lot anything else. Just meet sangat to jap naam, so looks like doing Vichaar feels good, but still if we havent started doing what Guru Sahib has directed to do, we are misfortunate?

Bhul Chuk muaaf for anything i wrote incorrect.
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Excellent points Veer Ji

When I first got into Sikhi and took Amrit I had no interest in vichar my main interest was doing sangat, listening to Gurbani, and doing naam abhyiaas. I use to wonder why so much vichaar. The path of SIkhi is relatively simple Naam Jaap, Sadh Sangat, and Seva. But my flame to engage only in Bhagti did not last forever due to karma kicking in. Somewhere and somehow that flame became dim and the books of Gurmukhs and Sikhi rekindle it.

Everyone is different and different things work differently for different people. I agree the internet or should I say info on the net is a bad medium for Sikhi, its the most dangerous information. But to some extent the internet has good resources ( inspiring katha, and kirtan recordings). But I agree the net is loud, I believe the soul becomes more gentler and at peace through physical books that are of spiritual nature. But as you mentioned the soul becomes most quiet when seeking naam in sangat. You have said many good things thank you for sharing your thoughts.
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With utmost respect Jatinder Singh ji, my knowledge is minuscule but would you like to share your inner journey ? kamayee of Gurubaani/naam is ultimate if you want to meet God/Waheguru, you are right....Jo prabh ko............khoj shabad me leh.....please forgive.
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Bhai saheb, sevak jee,

Guru Saheb shall save me from ego, which resides with me, and comes out often.... Like Suthra Singh jee mentioned that what i said is "excellent", it felt good to that ego, maybe my clever mind put on that vichaar seeking praise that i am "right". Similarly Sevak jee requested something thinking that i have some experience, but truth is that i am a neech who has not been able to follow Guru Sahibs hukams yet.

1.) I dont get up at Amrit Wela yet. So i dont qualify as a Sikh even (i am Amritdhari), Khalsa is far away.
2.) Family is not Amritdhari. So rehat is not complete, as i am living with Ni-Guras, even though they are my family, but Guru sahib says Niguray Kaa Hai Naao Buraa. But i do cook my food separate, dont know if this pleases Guru Sahib. All i can do is Ardaas for them.
3.) There is long way to go, need to read lot of baani beyond Nitnem.
long list smiling smiley

What can you learn from a person who doesnt even get up at Amrit Vela. Dont even trust that person's words, however impressive they seem. Dont listen/read to their stories.

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ਫਰੀਦਾ ਕੰਨਿ ਮੁਸਲਾ ਸੂਫੁ ਗਲਿ ਦਿਲਿ ਕਾਤੀ ਗੁੜੁ ਵਾਤਿ ॥
फरीदा कंनि मुसला सूफु गलि दिलि काती गुड़ु वाति ॥
Farīḏā kann muslā sūf gal ḏil kāṯī guṛ vāṯ.
Fareed, you wear your prayer shawl on your shoulders and the robes of a Sufi; your words are sweet, but there is a dagger in your heart.

ਬਾਹਰਿ ਦਿਸੈ ਚਾਨਣਾ ਦਿਲਿ ਅੰਧਿਆਰੀ ਰਾਤਿ ॥੫੦॥
बाहरि दिसै चानणा दिलि अंधिआरी राति ॥५०॥
Bāhar ḏisai cẖānṇā ḏil anḏẖi▫ārī rāṯ. ||50||
Outwardly, you look bright, but your heart is dark as night. ||50||

Respected GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI is about inner change. As physical body is not going to Waheguru's court, it will turn to dust.

Waking up in the morning is a must, Amrit wela & read or listen to Guru Granth Sahib Ji with faith with basic meaning than real meaning will automatically will come.

ਮਿਸਲ ਫਕੀਰਾਂ ਗਾਖੜੀ ਸੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਪੂਰ ਕਰੰਮਿ ॥੧੧੧॥
मिसल फकीरां गाखड़ी सु पाईऐ पूर करमि ॥१११॥
Misal fakīrāʼn gākẖ▫ṛī so pā▫ī▫ai pūr karamm. ||111||
It is so difficult to be like the fakeers - the Holy Saints; it is only achieved by perfect karma. ||111||

ਹੋਨਿ ਨਜੀਕਿ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਦੈ ਭੇਤੁ ਨ ਕਿਸੈ ਦੇਨਿ ॥੧੧੬॥
होनि नजीकि खुदाइ दै भेतु न किसै देनि ॥११६॥
Hon najīk kẖuḏā▫e ḏai bẖeṯ na kisai ḏen. ||116||
They are close to the Lord, but they do not reveal their secret to anyone.

ਬਾਘੁ ਮਰੈ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਰੀਐ ਜਿਸੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਦੀਖਿਆ ਹੋਇ ॥
बाघु मरै मनु मारीऐ जिसु सतिगुर दीखिआ होइ ॥
Bāgẖ marai man mārī▫ai jis saṯgur ḏīkẖi▫ā ho▫e.
The tiger is killed, and the mind is killed, through the Teachings of the True Guru

ਸਚਾ ਸਉਦਾ ਖਰਚੁ ਸਚੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪਿਰਮੁ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
सचा सउदा खरचु सचु अंतरि पिरमु पिआरु ॥
Sacẖā sa▫uḏā kẖaracẖ sacẖ anṯar piram pi▫ār.
The True Name is their merchandise, the True Name is their expenditure; the Love of their Beloved fills their inner beings.

ਜਮਕਾਲੁ ਨੇੜਿ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਆਪਿ ਬਖਸੇ ਕਰਤਾਰਿ ॥
जमकालु नेड़ि न आवई आपि बखसे करतारि ॥
Jamkāl neṛ na āvī āp bakẖse karṯār.
The Messenger of Death does not even approach them; the Creator Lord Himself forgives them.

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਆਇ ਵਸੈ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਵੀਚਾਰੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
अंतरि आइ वसै गुर सबदु वीचारै कोइ ॥
Anṯar ā▫e vasai gur sabaḏ vīcẖārai ko▫e.
The Lord comes and dwells within that one who contemplates the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

ਜਉ ਤਉ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਖੇਲਣ ਕਾ ਚਾਉ ॥
जउ तउ प्रेम खेलण का चाउ ॥
Ja▫o ṯa▫o parem kẖelaṇ kā cẖā▫o.
If you desire to play this game of love with Me,

ਸਿਰੁ ਧਰਿ ਤਲੀ ਗਲੀ ਮੇਰੀ ਆਉ ॥
सिरु धरि तली गली मेरी आउ ॥
Sir ḏẖar ṯalī galī merī ā▫o.
then step onto My Path with your head in hand.

ਪੂਰੇ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਘਟਿ ਵਧਿ ਕਿਛੁ ਨਾਹੀ ॥
पूरे का कीआ सभ किछु पूरा घटि वधि किछु नाही ॥
Pūre kā kī▫ā sabẖ kicẖẖ pūrā gẖat vaḏẖ kicẖẖ nāhī.
All that the Perfect Lord does is perfect; there is not too little, or too much.

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਐਸਾ ਜਾਣੈ ਪੂਰੇ ਮਾਂਹਿ ਸਮਾਂਹੀ ॥੩੩॥
नानक गुरमुखि ऐसा जाणै पूरे मांहि समांही ॥३३॥
Nānak gurmukẖ aisā jāṇai pūre māʼnhi samāʼnhī. ||33||
O Nanak, knowing this as Gurmukh, the mortal merges into the Perfect Lord God. ||33||
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Sevak jeeeo

Yes, i am working on Amrit Wela, Guru Sahib Kirpa karn.

Physical body will not go in Waheguru's court, but it is a vessel in which mind resides, and it has 9 doors through which 5 evils work to distract mind. So This vessel has to be kept in Rehit given by Guroo Sahib, what goes inside through these doors, affects the mind, and Guru Sahib's rehit is like Security Guard on these 9 doors.

If we choose not to have these security Guards, i.e we don't follow rehit, the Amrit Kamayee we will gain with whatever level of Bhakti, the 5 thieves will take it away, as Guru Sahib has written in Gurubaani. Exact Tukk i do not remember, paaanch chor din raat Amrit Luttdey hann, some Gurumukh can direct to that Pankiti.
So our bibek of food, bibek of sight, bibek of hearing, bibek of smelling, bibek of touching, bibek of speaking......., all impact our Kamayeee. We should do Ardaas to have all these bibeks, By Guroo Sahiib's Kirpaa we walk on this paath.

Guru Ji Bhalla Karn,
Akhar Waadha Ghaata Bhul Chuk Muaf
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Jatinder jio_/\_,
Amritvela becomes automatic living amongst Gursikhs or near or in Gurduara, that honors sancity of Guru Granth Sahib Jio, and need for cleanliness, adherence to rehit of ESPECIALLY, LANGAR PREPARED BY GURSIKHS _/\_.
What is preaching, to me is much needed guidance to progress on path of kanio tiki ji_/\_
Bhul chuk muaf
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ਅੰਨੁ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਬੈਸੰਤਰੁ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਲੂਣੁ ਪੰਜਵਾ ਪਾਇਆ ਘਿਰਤੁ ॥
अंनु देवता पाणी देवता बैसंतरु देवता लूणु पंजवा पाइआ घिरतु ॥
Ann ḏevṯā pāṇī ḏevṯā baisanṯar ḏevṯā lūṇ panjvā pā▫i▫ā gẖiraṯ.
The corn is sacred, the water is sacred; the fire and salt are sacred as well; when the fifth thing, the ghee, is added,

ਤਾ ਹੋਆ ਪਾਕੁ ਪਵਿਤੁ ॥
ता होआ पाकु पवितु ॥
Ŧā ho▫ā pāk paviṯ.
then the food becomes pure and sanctified.

ਪਾਪੀ ਸਿਉ ਤਨੁ ਗਡਿਆ ਥੁਕਾ ਪਈਆ ਤਿਤੁ ॥
पापी सिउ तनु गडिआ थुका पईआ तितु ॥
Pāpī si▫o ṯan gadi▫ā thukā pa▫ī▫ā ṯiṯ.
Coming into contact with the sinful human body, the food becomes so impure that is spat upon.

ਜਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨ ਊਚਰਹਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਰਸ ਖਾਹਿ ॥
जितु मुखि नामु न ऊचरहि बिनु नावै रस खाहि ॥
Jiṯ mukẖ nām na ūcẖrahi bin nāvai ras kẖāhi.
That mouth which does not chant the Naam, and without the Name eats tasty foods -

ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਤਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਥੁਕਾ ਪਾਹਿ ॥੧॥
नानक एवै जाणीऐ तितु मुखि थुका पाहि ॥१॥
Nānak evai jāṇī▫ai ṯiṯ mukẖ thukā pāhi. ||1||
O Nanak, know this: such a mouth is to be spat upon. ||1||

ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੇ ਰਤਿਆ ਦੁਖੁ ਬਿਖਿਆ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਜਾਇ ॥
अनदिनु नामे रतिआ दुखु बिखिआ विचहु जाइ ॥
An▫ḏin nāme raṯi▫ā ḏukẖ bikẖi▫ā vicẖahu jā▫e.
Night and day, remain attuned to the Naam, and the pain of corruption shall be dispelled from within.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੜਾ ਨਾਮੇ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੪॥੨੨॥੫੫॥
नानक सबदि मिलावड़ा नामे नामि समाइ ॥४॥२२॥५५॥
Nānak sabaḏ milāvṛā nāme nām samā▫e. ||4||22||55||
O Nanak, merging with the Shabad through the Name, one is immersed in the Name. ||4||22||55||
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You are right KS jee

I have never been in true sangat, i.e sangat of rehatwaan Gursikhs, bibeki Sikhs.....looking forward to it, making efforts in Toronto. I just stopped going to local gurudwara as i understood the Maryada from Bhai Sahib's book Gurmat Bibek, Jail Chittthiyaan. The langar cooked by non-bibekis, non-amritdharees, pad-ched saroop Prakash, made me realize that same is happening in my local Gurudwara, felt really sad, couldnt go back there since then. So its been a really long time i would say that i have had Darshan of my true Guru, Lareewar Saroop of Guru Sahib. I dont even know if i have ever in my life had darshan of true GURU! So i am really looking forward to meeting Guru Sahib and Sangat of his Singhs smiling smiley

Actually what i wrote above about "preaching" is just one aspect of it which looks problematic.....But still i am moorakh, Guru Sahib can work in infinite ways if someone has to be enlightened on path of Sikhi, like Suthra Singh says that books can inspire one back on path. Actually books have revived some things in me too....So i agree.

Longing to be Daas of Guru Sahib
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I am very disappointed by your comments, Jatinder Singh jee.

We all aspire to bigger things in life - including moving up the Naam scale but to publicly criticize the gurdwara that you have been going to for their transgressions (in your "new" assessment) is very sad. If you feel strongly about these issues, please work in the same gurdwara and try to improve it by first improving your very own life - a rose does not announce its fragrance, yet we all know when we are in the presence of a rose.

Remember that criticizing a few transgressions will never get you anywhere - learn to live with differences and work towards narrowing them. The right books may inspire you, but most would take you on the wide road of focusing on differences. If you have any time, focus purely on kamooing the bani of Guru Sahib.

And remember, Sant Gurbachan Singh was from Damdami taksal with a view on some banis and Bhai Randhir Singh had an opposite view. Yet, they would meet with the utmost warmth between themselves and never let such differences in their understanding take away from the fact that they were both sikhs of the Guru whose goal was to merge in the Guru, and not to prove whose understanding of a bani was "correct."

We don't need oral prachar - which is a Christian concept anyway. We need "kamooing" prachar, where someone gets influenced by simply being in your presence and seeing the results of the kamaaiee.

Focus on the warmth and all encompassing nature of Guru Arjan - Naa Ko Bairee Nahin Baganaa - to him their was no enemy, no stranger. Walk on that path rather than the path of criticism and you will see the results in your own well being..

Best wishes on this journey
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Vahiguroo Jio Guru Nanak baksheesh is already upon you Jatinder Singh Jio, thus, you have longing to walk kanio tikhi path ji_/\_.
My toree matt consoles this papee murakh kiri tul na hovni, we suffer now amongst non Vahiguroo loving sangat but if we keep up with Naam, Gurbani, daily Nitnem, atey rehit, as best as we can discipline our lazy minds, with laha we earn, Guru Gobind Singh Jio will come again on His magnificient white horse with wings, shimmering Kirpan, and mostly, His so very handsome roop to usher in KHALSA RAJ_/\_?
Bhul chuk muaf_/\_
ps Bhai Jeevan Singh Jio of AKJ Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Jio Jatha, atey Bhai Harpreet Singh Jio (very blessed Gurmukh) of AKJ, are must listen daily Jatinder Veer Jio_/\_, to instill love for Guru Gobind Singh Jio atey Khandey Batey Ki Pahul baksheesh_/\_ji
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Vaho Soorma Pyare Bhai Jeevan Singh Jio video_/\_
Vaho Soorma Pyare Bhai Harpreet Singh Jio video_/\_

Vaho Vaho Vaho Pyare Pyare Gurshabad Jio!_/\_
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Dhan Vaho Vahiguroo Jio Pyare Soorma Parvasa Prof Surinder Singh Jio_/\_,
Here is one more rasful Keertan Jatinder Singh Veerjio_/\_

bhul chuk muaf
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Well said Hsingh Jee,

This superiority complex is a disease and its become a new trend in the jatha among the youth . When attending sadh sangat we should never look at others short comings or assume they maryada we expect is the maryada that should be implemented. If this is the case then how can we have Darshan of Harmandir Sahib, Anand Sahib, Patna Sahib, Hazoor Sahib etc. None of them follow full maryada . Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji did parchar at many Gurdwaras that did not follow full maryada. Even jatha langar there would be tea served even though Bhai Sahib himself didnt drink tea ( refer to Bhai Jodh Singhs book) . We should have some standards but at the same time we should keep our heads below the sky. The greatest seva and the greatest parchar is to do sangat of Gursikhs and yes even those Gursikhs who dont share your same beliefs or opinions.
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hsingh60 jee

Tusi Sahee hou, for highlighting that i should focus on improving my life. But i need to see right path too in front of mee, and reject anything that Guroo Sahib doesnt like.

I think a Sikh should Jap Naam, and speak truth publicly with no fear. A high awastha sikh will go to Gurudwara and clearly tell in front of all with love that Maryada is not being followed. I am not at that awastha, too far. If someone without awastha tries this, will surely make mistake and get into argument. But it is easy to to say on this media, so i said it.

Criticism is important, but if criticizm is coming out of hatred and animosity, its not good for Gursikh.
Sahee Nu Sahee Kehnaa and Galat Nu Galat Kehnaaa is not Nindyaaa..... A voice has to be raised, but not in animosity or hatred, but with love, but that love only comes with Kamayee veer ji....which i dont have....want to have....satsang is important.....being at right place is important as it affects spiritual awastha.... and my local Gurudwara is not right place to be, and my awashta is not such that i can bring any change there as i lack wisdom of naam....

But you tell me if it is truth that Gurudwara is not following Maryada, why publicly it should not be told? Is it nindya or truth?

Bhul Chuk Muaf jee
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Suthraa Singh jee and hsingh60 jee

Ok, so i am new. I can be wrong, but this is very confusing...Put more light..

If Pad ched saroop is there, i.e beadbi of Guroo Sahib, should i bow there?
Degh not prepared with Sarbloh Maryada, which bibeki will not accept. Should i say no to degh in front of all?
In Langar, things served from outside on tables, like pakoras/sweets/coke/samosa....
Gursikhs not preparing langar. So there is no langar there at all actually.
When a Anand Karaj happens in darbaar, people treat Gurudwara like a marriage palace, there is so much chaos, management doesnt care, they want to keep people happy. This is their attitude, they dont bother about Maryada of Gurughar.
Parallel Akhand Paaths ongoing in different rooms, same problem, to please people and not care about Maryada.

So in above atmosphere, if we boycott going there, is it ego? Knowing so much, which i never knew before, how can i sit there being in dubidha and focus on naam. Even though Kirtan is blissful, but Maharaaj Prakash is not Lareewar. I.e Darbaar has no Guru Sahib.

Darbaar Sahib, Paonta Sahib, Hazoor Sahib, Patna Sahib is totally different case, sikhs have emotional attachment with these places where Guru Sahib had their charan....still they have good maryada, no one can treat these Gurughar like marriage palace there, there are rules in place at least. Like in Darbar Sahib, Lareedar Saroop of Maharaj is in Prakash, our real Guroo Ji.
Langar issue maybe can be overlooked or ignored, but in Darbaar if real Guru is missing, for what would a Gurusikh will go there if Guru is not present.

Surely if Darbar Sahib had pad ched saroop, i would not have been comfortable bowing to it even knowing that its Harmandir Sahib, though i would have felt good visiting Guru's Nagri as Guru Ji had their Charan at this place. A Chardi Kala Singh will never bear this, would have revolted against Prabhandak Committeee, imagine BHai Sahib Randhir Singh jee knowing about this what he would have done?

Where do we draw the line? Why would Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee sit in a darbar where Guru Sahib's bir is tempered with, i.e pad ched. Though he would have revolted being Chardi Kala Gursikh i think.

So should i go there? if yes, why and for what? Trying to bring change there is a separate thing which needs a lot of courage and naam-wisdom, but should i sit in that Darbaar?

Waheguru G Ka Khalsa Waheguru G Ki Fateh
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Guru Nanak Kirpa cheti Jio,
Veer Jatinder, i support your views TOTALLY, because i have got very ill consuming Gurduara langar atey KARAH PARSAD from hands of worldly sikhs who look at me with anger, do not wash hands before langar or karah parsad, and gives more favorism to tobacco smoker_/\_?
strange occusion this past sunday a tilak rss looking hind sat beside me in langar hall, and i have been terribly weak, suffering heartburn and worst unable to stay awake for Nitnem even_/\_..so no more Gurduara, or such sangat..thus, a close former neighbor does bhagti in home due to being same kalyug jorr in Gurduara situation as well_/\_
bhul chuk muaf kirpa Vahiguroo Jio_/\_
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ਕਬੀਰ ਸੰਤੁ ਨ ਛਾਡੈ ਸੰਤਈ ਜਉ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਮਿਲਹਿ ਅਸੰਤ ॥
ਮਲਿਆਗਰੁ ਭੁਯੰਗਮ ਬੇਢਿਓ ਤ ਸੀਤਲਤਾ ਨ ਤਜੰਤ ॥੧੭੪॥

Veer Jatinder Singh where will you draw the line. We should use bibek when we chose are sangat but not to the extent that we renounce the whole world. A Gurmukh who personally follows gurmat maryada will not lose his gurmat qualities when doing sangat with those that dont follow Gurmat if anything he will influence them to follow Gurmat by personal example. As mentioned its ok to have some standards but I think you are taking it too far. If you think Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji only did sangat with sarab loh bibeki singhs then you are misguided.

How far are we going to go when boycotting Gurdwaras that dont follow puratan or tatt maryada? Should we boycott Gurdwaras that dont do darshan of Dasam Granth? This is also a puratan maryada. Should we boycott gurdawaras that support beadbi of printing saroops in which they omit many laga matras when doing so? Puratan Gurdwaras only did parkash of handwritten lareedar saroops? Wheres the line?

If people are not intentionally doing beadbi than I dont see why there is a need to avoid such people. We should go to the gurdwara to listen to Gurbani and have sangat of Gursikhs( Both are the roop of Guru Sahib) thats the reason why we go to the Gurdwara. This is a new trend that we go to the Gurdwara and overly look at shortcoming instead of looking at our own shortcomings.

Im only telling you through experience I was new into Sikhi and had parents outside of Sikhi I also had a local gurdwara that was far from maryada but there were Gursikhs who attended and took me closer to Sikhi. Some of my greatest spiritual experiences happened when listening to Gurbani in this Gurdwara.
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Thanks for Nice Gurubani tuk Suthra Singh jee.... It says that we should not leave our saint attributes even in presence of unsaintly....That is true whenever we encounter such people. But Gurubaani also focuses on Sat Sangat.

Point is to avoid the place as it is not "satsangat", we go there (Gurudwara) for sat sangat. But Sat and Tatt are missing there. Guru Sahib says that Satsang Wadde Bhaag naal mildi hai, true sangat following tatt Gurumat:

Bin Bhaaga Sattsangg naa Labbhaeey..Binn Sangatt Maiilll Bhareeejaey Jio..

Firstly i ended up doing sangat of some so called Khalsa Singhs there and ended up in company which talks nothing about naam but all worldly things, like to eat out for a coffee and pizza...I sort of felt disconnected from naam doing sangat with them, even one of them gave me Santhyaa, but still as soon as Santhya is done, he was a different person talking about worldly things and pleasures.. So i left them after one point..

Secondly, i agree there can be a good Sikh there who does abhyaas, very high awastha, but doesnt care about Bibek, doesnt even care about beadbis happening as he too thinks that pad ched like things dont matter. But still to some point i can learn something from such singh until i dont know about Rehit and Bibek and beadbi. But when we come to know that anyone can be spiritually very high without bibek due to their pralabdh from past, but cannot go beyond to higher awasthas, they get stagnated because they have no rehit, thus no bakhshish...Gain ego with time like yogis of high awastha...i will have nothing much to discuss with that person as i know that person is not on tatt Gurumat. So if by Guru Sahib's bakhshish, we know that "Rehnii Rahaey Soyee Sikh Meraa" and understand that if we want to reach heights of Sikhi, we need to ask Gurooo Sahib for SATSangat in Ardaas, true sangat who is bibeki or aims for highest bibek, naam jap, follows tatt Gurumat. And if by Kirpa we do see such singhs around, we should try to do their sangat being their charna di dhoor.

The ignorant people around us, some who have no idea of dharm, some who have incomplete idea of Dharm, we should not hate them, or talk rude to them or think ourselves higher to them. We can behave normal to them when we meet them by chance, or for some worldly task. Give and take business, but we should not stick around with them a lot, as it will affect us, they can create dubidha in mind. For sure, we can sit and do Paaath with them, sing Kirtan with them, but still if we do this with bibekis, should give more lahaaa, aint it? Now that is our Bhaag if we do get sangat of good bibekis. There can be some fake bibekis too, this is kaljug. So anyways, if i target satsangat, i will loose interest doing sangat at Gurudwara which doesnt follow Hukams of Guroo Sahib, and are not even willing to change knowing everything, their bhaag.

Khalsa should only do sangat of bibekis who at least aim for high standards. Bibekis do make mistakes but not intentionally. Those who dont even believe in standards, we should remain away from them, especially not make friends with them. But treat them with respect, humility, we should get quiet if we do not agree with them. But if we feel they are willing to change, we should help them to our fullest ability. I personally am of low awastha, so i dont initiate any such discussions nowdays, as i end up arguing and disturbing my positivity.

Now Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh Jee prefered to remain alone doing Bhagti in intial days of his journey, remaining disconnected from college friends and doing paath all the time, no interest in anything else (blessing of Guroo Sahib), )keeping full bibek. I think it was when he had Darshan of Akaal Purakh, and he got some hukams (i believe, like Akhand Kiran, Nirbaan Kirtan, because Akaal Purkh made him listen full Akhand Paath in Samadhi, filled him with Gurubaani), afterwards he had all this journey of going to jail and Akhand Kirtans. In such awastha, sangat doesnt matter, in fact in such awastha, jot-vigaasi Gursikh has a paras Kalaa like Gurubaani, whereever he goes, creates sat sangat, becomes so powerful, so it doesnt matter if he was with sarb-lohis or not, as his awastha was very high, infact he created many Sarb-lohee Gursikhs around with Guru Sahib working inside him. But for people like me, chances are that hanging around with non-bibekis, taking interest in their talk will color me, their energy for sure will affect me, even if i pretend to be strong, but inside is affected, dubidhas get created. We talk and discuss useless topics with such people, waste our energy.

lastly, Saroops can have laga matra mistakes but unknowingly, but if we know even then we say that it is ok, and not do sudhai, that is Dhill. Khalsa cannot be dhilla, Guroo Sahib will not like it...Being in Sangat of Tatt-Khalsa by Kirpa, we will not be Dhille, will aim for higher goals...

But anyways, i cannot claim that i am totally right, there can be shortcomings in my thinking, as all above is what i have perceived so far reading Bhai Sahib's books, or reading some nice articles of Gursikhs on this forum.

Bhul Chuk Muaf,
Waheguru G Ka Khalsa, Waheguru G Ki Fateh.
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Actually, this stand of mine is the mindset i got reading Bhai Sahib's books. Bhai Sahib's Books guided me that Khalsa Should have very high standards but being humble. Strictness with humility, Khalsa should remain "niara". Anything which is not tatt-Gurumatt, true Khalsa should have strict stand on it, but with humility. We have been in habit of pleasing people around, as we grew up in such atmosphere, while Khalsa to remain Khalas should stay strict on Tatt Gurumatt. If our awastha is not high, we should only remain in Sangat of Bibeki Gurusikhs, this is what i feel persoanlly. While if we are of awashtha like Bhai Sahib (just a dream right now smiling smiley), then it doesnt matter where we are i think, then even in sangat of manmukhs/non-bibekis, we can enlighten the manmukhs without getting affected from their aura, because our own Aura is so strong meeting the Akaal Purakh.

But what is stand of Akhand Keertani Jatha today on this?

Akhar Waadha Ghaata Bhul Chuk Muaf jee
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But what is stand of Akhand Keertani Jatha today on this?

The stand of AKJ today is similar to it was during Bhai sahibs time. Gursikhs do not avoid or look at shortcomings of other Gursikhs. Go to smagams across the world you will see Gurmukhs of very high avastha sitting rite next to people like me with very low avastha. People go to the darbar sahib to do real work and focus on gurbani instead of focusing on what level other Gursikhs are. I see these high avastha Gurmukhs attending local gurdwaras and doing of sangat of people who are not immersed in tatt gurmat.

In Jatha, Langar was the same. There was a time when Tea was even served but sangat banned it when it was discovered it can contain intoxicants. Even today there are few places in AKJ smagams where Sarab Loh Bibekee is served, Bibekees Singhs still go they just might not eat langar. There is no such rule that you must eat langar if you are going to the Gurdwara . Bibeki langar only exists when you have people willing to commit to arranging such langar.

Im not claiming you should keep sangat of cultural sikhs who have no genuine interest in spirituality. There are plenty of Gursikhs in AKJ who are genuine gems of spirituality and even with in the AKJ there are those that are new and not keepting things like Bibek. We dont need to avoid such people and place ourselves on a pedestal. IF you are new into Sikhi it would benefit to focus more on inner rehat. Outer rehat is important but it doesnt supercede inner rehat. If you are not attending the Gurghar and doing sangat of Gursikhs and listening to Gurbani how are you going to blossom in Sikhi.
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Veer Suthra Singh

Two aspects of Sangat i think we are mixing :

1.) Keertan in hazoori of Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib in Gurudwara or Any Samagam : Here yess, we have to be selective in choosing Singhs for sewa of Guru Jee. In this setup, we expect Rehitwan-bibeki singhs as sewadars of Guroo Sahib, only such singhs should be chosen for the sewa. Prabandhaks should be rehitwaan Khalsas too, who ensure that no Dhill is there, who know rehit of Guru Sahib. Now Kirtan in this Darbaar setup, will create different atmosphere. Anyone can come in this setup and take laha, we can sit with anyone even a non-Amritdhari, as all are singing Waheguru's praise, no worldly discussion ongoing and Bibeki-Singhs are taking care of Maryada of Darbaar. No one here will utter any word other than Waheguru's praise, singing with Kirtaniye.

But if such setup is not there in Darbaar, maryada not there, rehitwaan singhs not there, true Guroo not there, such atmosphere will not benefit as much as above. This also means that either we do not advocate tatt Gurumat with full heart yet, or we dont know about it at all, and we make compromise with certain things. Wadbhagey are those who get "Sat" "Sang", true congregation, otherwise there are lot of stuff ongoing in name of Satsang. Any Sang which is away from Satt and Tatt, cannot be Satsang, it will be something else. If we do not get true congregation, and we are happy in some other congregation, our bhaag have now awaken yet in my view.

2.) Doing Sangat of Individual or Group of Individuals outside Darbaar : This is another aspect of Sangat on which i was focssing, making friends, if friends are Bibeki, more Bibeki, more its good for us. Waddde Bhaag if we get sangat of singhs following Tatt Gurumat as friends or teachers, or at least aiming for it. Otherwise we need to do ardaas to Guru Sahib, and keep working on our Nitnem, Amrit Wela.

In my view Dhill in Maryada/Rehit is the main reason we are not seeing tatt Khalsa anymore. Otherwise there is lot of Sangat Samagams going around the world, i have been going to Gurudwara since childhood, and no change ever came in me. I never felt wanting to meet God eating Degh at Gurudwara, or eating langar at Gurudwara. This cannot happen, if congregation is true, definitely it changes one from depths in just one such sangat. So for sure something is lost in Gurudwaras/Samagams. How was Bhai Sahib's Kirtan so different and people in Samagams went into Bairaag? Why is it not happening today?

Anyways, if i am not in right direction, Guru Sahib Bakhshish Karan on me that my views change and i be on right path. Maybe i will learn with expereince and time.

WaheGuru G Ka Khalsa Waheguru G Ki Fateh.
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Jatinder Singh, it’s fine if you don’t feel comfortable going to a Gurdwara that does not have Laridaar Saroop and does not follow Gurmat Maryada. Doing constant Sangat at such places can be a bad influence. Just recently a kid told us drugs are sold at one of the prominent Gurdwara here. What are our kids going to learn in such places where drugs are sold and kids are buying these drugs there? If you have a choice to be with Sangat that follows Tat Gurmat Maryada, then there is no need to go to places that don’t follow Tat Gurmat. Ideological talk is easy and to be politically correct is desirable but when it comes to being spiritually pragmatic, then there is no need to care about these things. Just do what is spiritually uplifting.

Kulbir Singh
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Kulbir Singh Wrote:
> Just recently a kid told us
> drugs are sold at one of the prominent Gurdwara
> here. What are our kids going to learn in such
> places where drugs are sold and kids are buying
> these drugs there? If you have a choice to be
> with Sangat that follows Tat Gurmat Maryada, then
> there is no need to go to places that don’t
> follow Tat Gurmat. Ideological talk is easy and
> to be politically correct is desirable but when it
> comes to being spiritually pragmatic, then there
> is no need to care about these things. Just do
> what is spiritually uplifting.
> Kulbir Singh

Kulbir singh ji, are you really going to believe something some kid said? What validity does some kid's words have?
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Kulbir singh ji, are you really going to believe something some kid said? What validity does some kid's words have?

Sometimes, innocent kids are more trustworthy than adults. This information is highly likely to be true. There is no reason to not believe this kid.

Kulbir Singh
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Yes Kulbir Singh Jee, anything is possible if Maryada is missing....nothing surprising. And these Gurudwaras represent Sikh community to western world. As they define Langar as food prepared in community Kitchen. Students get home like food, which looks good, it would have been best if food was Guru Ka Langar as that could have ended their sufferings too, would have atracted them to Sikhi.
Anyways, Akaal Purkh Ki Mauj.

Waheguru g Ka Khalsa, Waheguru g Ki Fateh
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Vahiguroo Jio,
Paviterr Charna hath jorr benti bhul chuk muaf if it seems like i am doing nindak of Gurduara sangat, gyani and think i am better, NOT AT ALL Jio_/\_
just trying to progress in khandey batey ki pahul bhagti rehit, end janam maran dukh, and kirpa of Guru Gobind Singh Jio (as over decade of initial baksheesh no longer..for favoring maya vs rehit), as explained by Gurmukhs Bhai Kulbir Singh Jio atey Bhai Jatinder Singh Jio_/\_
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