Blue not to be worn?

Sukhdeep Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Rattan singh Bhanghu was not an ordinary person.He
> was grandson of Bhai mehtab singh who had beheaded
> Massa Ranghar
> inside Harmandir sahib. He had first hand
> knowledge of many incidents relating to Baba Banda
> singh bahadar.
>
> He is not the only one who wrote about
> misadventures of Baba Singh.Bhai Koer singh wrote
> Gurbilas patshahi 10 in 1751 AD.
> He does mention about Baba Banda singh bahadar
> breaching khalsa code of conduct.
>
> Bhai Sukhdeep singh ji has raised a point about
> panj piaras sent with Baba Banda singh.
>
> Guru kian sakhain mentions name of panj piaras
> sent with Banda singh as below in sakhi no 112
>
> Bhai Bhagwant singh
> Bhai Koer singh
> Bhai Baaz singh
> Bhai Binod singh
> Bhai Kahn singh
>
> Piara singh padam writes in Basawalinama on page
> 27 quoting kesar singh chhibber
>
> Bahut sikh bande nu yarvin patshashi haisan
> kehnde
>
> Banswalinama 12 charan
>
> Then Padam writes that Banda singh was appointed
> as general of khalsa army. Panj Piaras were sent
> with him representing
> Guru Khalsa
>
> Bhai Sahib, Rattan Singhs ancestors were warriors
> but Rattan Singh himself was not. Simply put he
> was a wealthy aristorcrat who had the leisure time
> to write history at a time where people people had
> historical resources.
>
> Bansvalinama does mention Banda Singh Bahadur
> broke conduct by claiming he was the 11th Guru.
> You yourself have quoted this claim. But we cannot
> take Bansvalinama to be a credit source.
> Bansvalinama refers to the Gurus lineage. Nowhere
> in this text is there any mention of Gurgadii
> given to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Panj
> Pyaarey;instead, they make the ludricous claim
> that Sahibzadey Ajit SIngh Ji sat on the Gurgaddi.
> They also make the claim Baba Ajit Singh Ji was
> married and he had a child. Guru Kia Sakhian
> mentions the same thing.
>
> We all know through history from the time of Sri
> Guru Nanak Dev Ji people try to stray people from
> the true Guru . This was no different when
> Gurgaddi was given to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
> People made false claims such as Baba Ajit Singh
> Ji was 11th Guru, and they also made claims that
> Banda Singh Bahadur Ji claimed himself to be Guru.
> These allegations were invented to disunite the
> panth and create confusion. Bansvalinama is not a
> credible source to understand the life of Banda
> Singh Bahadur Ji. Bansvalinama mentions Guru Sahib
> sent Banda SIngh Bahadur with 3 sikhs ( no mention
> of Binod Singh) not 5. This cant be true as the
> Gurmat tradition was 5 Gursikhs.
>
> In regards to Red, Banda Singh Bahadur was forced
> to wear a red turban and kalgi by the Mughals.
> When he was caputred like Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur he
> was forced in an iron cage and mocked around the
> city of delhi. The Muslims also propagated this
> agenda of making Banda Singh Bahadur the 11th Guru
> thus they dressed him like a king. They wanted the
> Muslims to know that the 11th Guru was captured.
> They took off his dastar and placed red
> polmegrates on his head as a joke/mockery so all
> the crowd can have a laugh of the " Sikh Guru "
> being clowned on.
>
> But think carefully, if he himself claimed to be
> Guru and started a new sect then why would he
> fight against the Muslims. This would not be in
> his best interest. Nor would it be in there
> interest of the Muslims to fight and kill him,
> because the greatest blow to the Sikhs was for
> someone to create a new sect. The fact is he was a
> humble Gursikh and a great leader and for this
> reason he was defamed by anti Sikh forces.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please read bansavalinama carefully.It does not mention that Banda singh was sent with three sikhs.It rather gives a dialogue between
Baba Banda singh Bahadar and three sikhs namely Koer singh, Baaz singh and one other wherein they pose as merchants who hawk their goods and travel to Punjab.Banda singh asks them who were they and after some more questions and answers they reveal that they are
lubana sikhs who sell their goods on travel. Banda singh asks them that he will like to travel in their company.

Bnasvalinama is not only source that says that Banda singh followers had started considering him as 11th Guru.Pl see refrence

[www.thesikhen...res]


BANDAI, Posted in Biographical - Sikh Political figures


BANDAI, name given to the followers of the Sikh hero, Banda Singh Bahadur (1670-1716), who regarded him not only as a military leader but also as Guru next to Guru Gobind Singh in spiritual succession. They were opposed and ultimately expelled in 1721 by the mainstream of the Sikhs, the Tatt Khalsa. A small number of Bandai Sikhs still survive. They reverence the Guru Granfh Sahib as their Scripture and most of them also undergo the Khalsa initiatory rites, but Banda Singh Bahadur is for them their eleventh Guru against the common Sikh belief of the spiritual line having ended with Guru Gobind Singh, the Tenth Master.

References :

1. Gian Singh, Giani, TwarUch Guru Kha/sa. Patiala, 1970
2. Cunningham, Joseph Davey, A History of the Sikhs. London, 1849
3. Ganda Singh, Life of Banda Singh Bahadur. Amritsar, 1935
4. Nripinder Singh, The Sikh Moral Tradition. Delhi, 1990

unquote

Ajit singh adopted son of Mata sundri ji had started styling himself auru. That is why Mata sundri ji had disowned him. When Mata sundri ji alerted Banda singh about his misdoings he retorted back terming her as dumb lady.No sikh of Guru wi;ll take this insult.Once we lose respect for Mata ji who led sikhs for decades , we are become robots sans emotions.

Sukhdeep Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I forgot to respond to your claim about changing
> Fateh.
>
> If you read the complete letters of Baba Jis you
> will notice some Bahamn has tampered with them.
> For example, most of the letters are pro gurmat
> they mention to stay away from meat and
> intoxicants to always jaap gurmat naam, but then
> there is mention of not eating onions. Onions!
> What do onions have to do with Gurmat?Not eating
> onions is a Bahaman maryada. Its obvious the
> Bahmans tampered with the letters to mislead
> Sikhs.Kesar Singh Chhiber himself was a Bahman so
> no wonder he propagated the belief that people
> referred to Banda SIngh Bahadur as the 11th Guru.
>
>
> In the letters, most likely they changed the
> mangla charan Ik Ong Kar Sri Waaheguru Ji Ki Fateh
> to Darshan Fateh and some mischeiveous person made
> the claim that Banda Singh Bahadur changed the
> Fateh to Darshan Fateh. Darshan Fateh makes no
> sense at all.
============================================================================================================

Bhai Kesar singh chhibber came from family of Bhai Mati dass ji, Bhai chaupa singh and was son of Bhai Gurbakhash singh.They were serving Guru sahiban being in inner circles.Once you embrace sikhism your past religion does not hold any relevance.Read Bhai Chaupa singh's rehatnama to see it as he condemns brahminical practices in that. Let us not name call Bhai kesar singh ji just because his writings contradict our view point.

Below is from Gur partap where in verse 17 Baba Banda singh claims to be a Guru and asks khalsa to have his darshan.

[www.ik13.net]

Quote
Rattan singh Bhanghu was not an ordinary person.He was grandson of Bhai mehtab singh who had beheaded Massa Ranghar
inside Harmandir sahib. He had first hand knowledge of many incidents relating to Baba Banda singh bahadar.

Being from the lineage of a great shaheed does not makes someone extra ordinary. In present times when we have access to so much information through various mediums including social networking, there are numerous examples of great shaheeds of the panth in current sangharsh not only devoid of any correct knowledge about their elders exemplary deeds but also causing a lot of confusion and mistrust in the panth by misusing the shaheedi of their elders...

Khalsa panth needs to get out of the mentality that whatever the relatives of a shaeed or great gursikh say is correct. Every individual is doind his own karam.

Rattan singh Bhanghu started writing Panth Parkash in 1809.His grandfather Bhai mehtab singh mirankot beheaded Massa ranghar in 1740.

Considering Bhanghu born sometime in 1777-- sometime it proves that he had first hand information of period from his father. Being from a family of martyrs who happened to be in that era gives him right source of information. His works have been proved authentic by other sources of history texts of that era.

Bhai mehtab singh did a great job for sikhi and i do not think his grandson would bring discredit to him by writing inaccurate account. Some of Bhai mehtab singh's descendants are settled in Fresno,CA area of US and they take pride in celebrating event of Massa ranghar beheading every year
in a local gurudwara sahib.For some being from a family line of martyrs still matters.

Bhai Inder Singh Jee, Ratan Singh Bhangus book is no doubt a great sourse of our history but Bhangu was not infallable. He has written many things which we know are not correct such as distorting Bhai Mani Singh Jee's Shaheedi by saying it was because of a Sraap given by the Sangat because Bhai Sahib cut or distorted Gurbani. While most of the Panth has now come to realize how ridiculous that sounds but still I have seen Sanatani Sikhs who believe this.

Another example of the distortions in Ratan Singh Bhangu's work is that he says that the first thing Baba Gurbaksh Singh Shaheed did in the morning even before his nitnem and Ishnan was to drink Bhang. Now how are we to believe this?

We need to realise that those who go astray are Manmukhs and Manmukhs do not have the Shakti nor will power to become Shaheeds. It's not just Baba Banda Singh Bahadur's great Shaheedi, if he was a Manmukh why so many hundreds of Chardikala Singhs like Bhai Baz Singh Jee also enthusiastically gave Shaheedi with him? they could have saved themselves like Binod Singh by collaborating with the Mughals but these Chardikala Singh's knew they were following a Brahmgiani Mahapursh. The famous story of the young boy whose mother tried to save him, and he could have saved himself but he refused to leave and became a Shaheed as a companion of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. We need to believe these individuals instead of collaborators who were basically the Santa Singhs of their times.

Quote
You need to visit Baba banda singh's dera to see his guru status in action. So many historical texts support this. So it is not one quote only.

Baba Banda Singh Bhadur became Shaheed and his son got Shaheedi before him. There is no descendant of him and there was no tradition of Gaddi system back then. So any Dambi (hypocrite) could open up a dera on this great Shaheed's name and fool gullible people. Such Deras has no place and validity in Gurmat, hence shunned by main stream Sikhi.

Quote
GOI agents are already name calling Sant Jarnail singh ji.Foremost among them are Kala afghana outfits calling him a bipar sadh. Sikh marg editor Makhan singh Purewal has done it many times.Missionaries have joined them too.

Exactly, there were people of the same nature back then too, who used derogatory language and name callings in their literature for Baba Banda Singh Bhadhur. Surprisingly, some still continue his NINDA taking the excuse that it is in historical texts. With same token you are implying that following article is true because this will be an historical text in next decades and hundred year later.

'Bhindranwale started thinking he is the 11th Guru'


[timesofindia.indiatimes.com]

Again if one feels even a little bit of pain for Khalsa Panth then refrain defaming our great Sikh General Shaheed Baba Banda Bhadar.

Quote

Please read bansavalinama carefully.It does not mention that Banda singh was sent with three sikhs.It rather gives a dialogue between
Baba Banda singh Bahadar and three sikhs namely Koer singh, Baaz singh and one other wherein they pose as merchants who hawk their goods and travel to Punjab.Banda singh asks them who were they and after some more questions and answers they reveal that they are
lubana sikhs who sell their goods on travel. Banda singh asks them that he will like to travel in their company.

Bnasvalinama is not only source that says that Banda singh followers had started considering him as 11th Guru.Pl see refrence

[www.thesikhen...res]


BANDAI, Posted in Biographical - Sikh Political figures


BANDAI, name given to the followers of the Sikh hero, Banda Singh Bahadur (1670-1716), who regarded him not only as a military leader but also as Guru next to Guru Gobind Singh in spiritual succession. They were opposed and ultimately expelled in 1721 by the mainstream of the Sikhs, the Tatt Khalsa. A small number of Bandai Sikhs still survive. They reverence the Guru Granfh Sahib as their Scripture and most of them also undergo the Khalsa initiatory rites, but Banda Singh Bahadur is for them their eleventh Guru against the common Sikh belief of the spiritual line having ended with Guru Gobind Singh, the Tenth Master.

References :

1. Gian Singh, Giani, TwarUch Guru Kha/sa. Patiala, 1970
2. Cunningham, Joseph Davey, A History of the Sikhs. London, 1849
3. Ganda Singh, Life of Banda Singh Bahadur. Amritsar, 1935
4. Nripinder Singh, The Sikh Moral Tradition. Delhi, 1990

Bansvalinama specifically mentions how Baba Ji was accompanied by three Sikhs (Baz Singh, Kaur Singh , Bhagat Singh) and Baba Ji was the leader of the three but there is no mention of Binod Singh and Kahn SIngh. Why? Because the Brahmin who wrote this did not take Gurmat Maryada into mind when writing. We all know Guru Sahib sent Baba Ji with the Panj Pyaarey as the leader. Bansavalinama does not even mention the name Binod Singh anywhere in the book. This is a week source which has no credit.

The aristocrat Bhangu also did not take into consideration Gurmat Maryada when writing history. He mentoins how Guru Sahib performed Jhatka at Madhod/Lakhshmi Das's ( Baba Banda SIngh ) ashram. Why would he do this?

You have provided very flimsy evidence on Baba Banda SIngh Bahadur Ji. All the sources you keep mention are written hunderds of years after Baba Ji became shaheed. Refer to the contemporary sources of Baba jis time. See what the Muslims say about him. They often refer to him as a Nanak- Panthi ( Follower of Guru Nanak). Durrani refers to the Singhs as Babar Shers and their leader ( Baba Ji) as lethal. Other Muslims sources say the Singhs dress like Fakirs but in the battlfield they fight like demons. In those days Fakirs were black chole not princely red chole. The Singhs were dark blue which was similar to the Fakirs dress. An Englsih witness of Baba Jis martrydom mentions how Baba Ji was forced into an iron cage while wearing red/gold silk garments and red turbans plated with gold. Do you honestly think Baba Ji was wearing such attire when the Singhs were starving for months. The English man also refers to Baba Ji as Guru Banda Singh. THis is additional proof that Muslims titled him Guru as a tactic to illustrate to the crowd the 11th Guru was captured. Why would Baba Ji refer to himself as Guru ? he made coins in praise of the Gurus. In his letter he addresses Guru Gobind Singh Ji as Sache Paatshah ( True King) He was a follower of the Guru in which some people spread rumors after his death. THe same way with Baba Raam Singh Ji. We know by his letters that he was a follower of the Guru. We also know he wore Blue. But now there is a cult who follow him and where white. Shoud we start believing Baba Raam SIngh Ji claimed Guruship based on these rejects?

Quote

Bhai Kesar singh chhibber came from family of Bhai Mati dass ji, Bhai chaupa singh and was son of Bhai Gurbakhash singh.They were serving Guru sahiban being in inner circles.Once you embrace sikhism your past religion does not hold any relevance.Read Bhai Chaupa singh's rehatnama to see it as he condemns brahminical practices in that. Let us not name call Bhai kesar singh ji just because his writings contradict our view point.

Below is from Gur partap where in verse 17 Baba Banda singh claims to be a Guru and asks khalsa to have his darshan.

If we go by this logic then we should also start believing in the history of the manmukh Mehravan as he is blood lineage of the Guru. What you need to do is use some critical thinking instead of blindly following someone because of their lineage.

Jasjit singh ji wrote

Baba Banda Singh Bhadur became Shaheed and his son got Shaheedi before him. There is no descendant of him and there was no tradition of Gaddi system back then. So any Dambi (hypocrite) could open up a dera on this great Shaheed's name and fool gullible people. Such Deras has no place and validity in Gurmat, hence shunned by main stream Sikhi.

My Response

Please read sikh historical texts before making such statements.

Dr Ganda singh writes in his book on Baba Banda singh Bahadar that Baba ji spent his time from oct 1713 to Feb 1715 on Banks of river Chenab.The village name is Bhabbar. There he solemnized second marriage to Bibi Sahib Kaur daughter of khatri of Wazirabad, of whom his second son Ranjit Singh was born.The mother and child were here when banda singh was taken to Delhi with his first wife and son Ajai singh.

Life of Baba Banda singh Bahadar by Dr Ganda singh, page 177

Dr Ganda singh himself visited and saw this dera.


Jasjit singh wrote

Exactly, there were people of the same nature back then too, who used derogatory language and name callings in their literature for Baba Banda Singh Bhadhur. Surprisingly, some still continue his NINDA taking the excuse that it is in historical texts. With same token you are implying that following article is true because this will be an historical text in next decades and hundred year later.

My response

Such people existed when Sant Bhindrewale was on the scene.Kala afghana writes in his books bad about sant ji and sikh fighters terming them as looters while condemning importance of Amritvela saying that desh dhrohis wake up at this time and commit anti national activities.
At same time he claimed to be an advisor of sant ji.

Now his backers and other groups of missionaries openly call sant ji as Bipar sadh. Sikhs know about sant ji but still propaganda is going on against sant ji. Same people project Baba Banda singh as savious of sikhs and term mainstream sikhs as traitors including Mata sundri ji.We should be careful not to be taken in their false propaganda.

Read below

---------------Admin Cut - We can't allow reference to this Manmat site here-------------------------------

nimana Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bhai Inder Singh Jee, Ratan Singh Bhangus book is
> no doubt a great sourse of our history but Bhangu
> was not infallable. He has written many things
> which we know are not correct such as distorting
> Bhai Mani Singh Jee's Shaheedi by saying it was
> because of a Sraap given by the Sangat because
> Bhai Sahib cut or distorted Gurbani. While most of
> the Panth has now come to realize how ridiculous
> that sounds but still I have seen Sanatani Sikhs
> who believe this.
>
> Another example of the distortions in Ratan Singh
> Bhangu's work is that he says that the first thing
> Baba Gurbaksh Singh Shaheed did in the morning
> even before his nitnem and Ishnan was to drink
> Bhang. Now how are we to believe this?
>
> We need to realise that those who go astray are
> Manmukhs and Manmukhs do not have the Shakti nor
> will power to become Shaheeds. It's not just Baba
> Banda Singh Bahadur's great Shaheedi, if he was a
> Manmukh why so many hundreds of Chardikala Singhs
> like Bhai Baz Singh Jee also enthusiastically gave
> Shaheedi with him? they could have saved
> themselves like Binod Singh by collaborating with
> the Mughals but these Chardikala Singh's knew they
> were following a Brahmgiani Mahapursh. The famous
> story of the young boy whose mother tried to save
> him, and he could have saved himself but he
> refused to leave and became a Shaheed as a
> companion of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. We need to
> believe these individuals instead of collaborators
> who were basically the Santa Singhs of their
> times.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Nimana ji

Bhai Bhanghu's is not only account about religious misconduct of Baba banda singh ji.There are various sources that say samething, Those sources are Bhai Koer singh's Gurbilas patshahi 10, bhai kesar singh ji chhibber, Gurpartap suraj of Bhai santokh singh ji, shaheed bilas bhai mani singh by sewa singh, Dr Ganda singh about his second marriage, mehma parkash. All these texts cann't be wrong.

Baba Binod singh ji was a great Gursikh of charhdi kala. Ganda singh dr writes in his book that when sikhs wer encircled in Gurdas nangal he and his band were the ones who were coming in death defying tactics and take some food from outside. It is important to know sikhs were encircled earlier also under Banda singh at Mukhalisgarh or lohgarh.Their they broke cordon and escaped.Baba Binod singh ji wanted same strategy to be adopted here at Gurdas nangal and advised baba ji to make a pincer move and break cordon.Baba Ji did not want to adopt this method now .Baba Binod singh ji made the move and escaped.

The point here is let us not eulogize Baba Banda singh's sacrifice at the cost of other mainstream singhs like Baba Binod singh ji who later led sikhs and was first jathedar of Dal khalsa.

Bhai sukhdeep singh ji

Bansavalinama introduces these three singhs to Baba Banda singh in form of a dialogue between them and Baba ji.It does not say that they were chosen by Guru sahib to accompany him.If so please show us here.

You call Bhai kesar singh ji chhibber as Brahmin because he writes that Baba Banda singh bahdar asked sikhs not to take onions. This advice of Baba banda singh ji is written Banda singh' s Hukamnama to sikh sangat wherein he writes that sikhs should not take onions.

Bhai Kulbir singh ji asked about substitution of blue color by red by banda singh ji.Here is what kavi sewa singh writes in shaheed bilas bhai mani singh ji

ਨੀਲਾ ਬੰਦ ਕਰਾਇਆ, ਅੰਬਰ ਪਹਿਨਣਾ ॥
ਸੂਹਾ ਅੰਗ ਲਗਾਇਆ, ਏਹਦੇ ਸੇਵਕਾ ॥
ਮਾਸ ਮੱਛੀ ਨਹਿ ਖਾਣ, ਬਣ ਗਏ ਵੈਸਨੋ ॥
ਪਯਾ ਵਿਖਾਂਧ ਸੀ ਆਣ, ਮਧ ਇਮ ਖਾਲਸੇ ॥
ਮਾਤ ਸੁੰਦਰੀ ਲਿਖਾ ਸੋਚ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਇਹ ॥
ਦੋਹਾਂ ਦਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਮੇਲ, ਕਰਨ ਕਰਾਨ ਲਈ ॥
ਸੇਵਾ ਹਰੀ ਸੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਬਾਚੀ ਖੋਲ ਕੇ ॥
ਮਨੀ ਸਿੰਘ ਮਿਕਾਏ ਝਗੜਾ ਦੋਹਾਂ ਕਾ ॥੧੪੩॥

Quote

Bansavalinama introduces these three singhs to Baba Banda singh in form of a dialogue between them and Baba ji.It does not say that they were chosen by Guru sahib to accompany him.If so please show us here.

You call Bhai kesar singh ji chhibber as Brahmin because he writes that Baba Banda singh bahdar asked sikhs not to take onions. This advice of Baba banda singh ji is written Banda singh' s Hukamnama to sikh sangat wherein he writes that sikhs should not take onions.

Bhai Sahib, I dont think you are understanding what I am saying.

Bansavalinama is not a credible nor accurate source. The very fact that is does not mention Panj Pyaarey going with Baba Ji is enough proof. Read other chapters of this text and you will realize the penmanship of a Bahman.

I didnt state the bahman Kesar Singh chibber tampered with the letters to sangat, but no doubt there was a bahman who tampered with it because Guru Sahib and Baba Ji would not advise sangat to not eat onions. This has nothing to do with Gurmat this is the belief of bahmans.

Please answer the following questions

1.If Banda Singh Bahadur claimed Gurship then why is the letter addressed to Sikh sangat according to the wishes of Sache Paatshah ( Guru Gobind Singh JI)?

2. Did the Muslims dress Baba Ji in red or was he already wearing red in Gurdas Nangal?

3. Where the Singhs at Gurdas Nangal follower of Guru Sahib or Baba Ji. For example, when the eye witness historian to the Singhs shaheedi mentions how a worried mother told the authorities her son was not sikh and the boy responded I dont know who this mother is I am faithful follower of the Guru which Guru was he referring to . Baba Ji or Guru Sahib?

3. Did Mata Sahib kaur have an adopted son name Ajit Singh who had a son name hatthi singh? If not, why does Bansvalinama mention this?

4. What year did Baba Ji claim to be Guru? Keep in mind he left to Punjab in 1708 and became shaheed 8 years later. He was in Gurdas Nangal for about 8 months. Did he claim Gurship after or before minting coins in praise of Guru Sahib.

5. Why do the contemporary sources of Baba Jis time refer to Baba Ji as a " Nanak Panthi".

If you cannot answer these questions I see no reason to keep this discussion going. What you are saying is mere assumptions. You are not taking into account eye witness of the events of Baba Jis life.

Also, you are incorrect in saying Binod SIngh was the first jathedar of the Khalsa Dal. The first jathedar of Khalsa Dal was the humble servant Nawab Kapoor Singh. He was blessed with siropa by Panj Pyaare which included the following Gursikhs: Baba Deep Singh, Budh Singh ( grandfather of Maharaja Ranjit SIngh) Jassa SIngh ( Ramgharia) , hari Singh and Karam Singh.

[quote[ਨੀਲਾ ਬੰਦ ਕਰਾਇਆ, ਅੰਬਰ ਪਹਿਨਣਾ ॥
ਸੂਹਾ ਅੰਗ ਲਗਾਇਆ, ਏਹਦੇ ਸੇਵਕਾ ॥
ਮਾਸ ਮੱਛੀ ਨਹਿ ਖਾਣ, ਬਣ ਗਏ ਵੈਸਨੋ ॥
ਪਯਾ ਵਿਖਾਂਧ ਸੀ ਆਣ, ਮਧ ਇਮ ਖਾਲਸੇ ॥
ਮਾਤ ਸੁੰਦਰੀ ਲਿਖਾ ਸੋਚ ਵਿਚਾਰ ਇਹ ॥
ਦੋਹਾਂ ਦਲਾਂ ਦਾ ਮੇਲ, ਕਰਨ ਕਰਾਨ ਲਈ ॥
ਸੇਵਾ ਹਰੀ ਸੀ ਪਾਤੀ ਬਾਚੀ ਖੋਲ ਕੇ ॥
ਮਨੀ ਸਿੰਘ ਮਿਕਾਏ ਝਗੜਾ ਦੋਹਾਂ ਕਾ ॥੧੪੩॥[/quote]

The above is the quote you gave us, Bhai Inder Singh jeeo. Now read the third line of this quote. The author is saying that one of the problem that Baba Banda Singh created was that he stopped Singhs from eating fish and meat, and asked them to become vegetarians. Rattan Singh Bhangu too has written the same thing that Baba jee stopped Singhs from eating meat and he further writes a very strange blunder. He writes that after the agreement between Bandai Khalsa and Tat Khalsa, the agreement was that Bandai Khalsa would merge into so called Tat Khalsa and the condition for it was that Bandai Khalsa would have to drink soup prepared from pork meat i.e. taree of pork meat. What an absurd and extremely anti-Gurmat thing to write. If there was a need to give them choola, then the choola would have been of Amrit and not of soup of pork meat. He further writes that this meat was cooked at Siri Harmandir Sahib. Just as this is a totally false and mischevious claim by Bhangu and we reject it, same way any attack on the pious and untouchable personality of Baba Banda Singh is totally rejected by Gursikhs.

Bansavalinama or Bhangu's Pracheen Panth Prakash or Giani Gian Singh's Panth Prakash, are all works of such people who were not known to be Rehitvaan Naam Abhyaasi Gursikhs. Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh himself caught Giani Gian Singh consuming opium and he admitted before Bhai Sahib that he had made up the Saakhi of Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee consuming opium before going to the battlefield. Can we believe such immoral authors? Never. We would accept their Saakhis if they are in accordance to Gurmat. Dr Ganda Singh and other modern day scholars wrote most of their history based on the historical texts of Bhangu, Gian Singh etc and as such everything he wrote can't be believed one hundred percent. Basically, even if I had seen with my own eyes anything about Baba Banda Singh, I would still not believe because Baba jee was a Brahmgyani and the testimony of five senses is not more authentic than Baba jee's personality.

Kulbir Singh

Inder Singh, you keep quoting questionable sources. Sources which have not been written according to Gurmat Maryada. We cant rely on history which contradicts Gurbani or maryada.

Kavi Seva Singh did not write according to Gurmat Maryada. He writes Shaheed Bha Mani Singh Ji would take bhang ( sukha) regularly.
ਆਸਾ ਵਾਰ ਸੁਖਾਂ ਦੀ ਖਾਣੀ I ੧੮੨

Bhang is prohibited in Gurmat Maryada.

Bhangu emualed these sanatanist writings of Shaheedi Bilas when Bhangu mentions Baba Ji had to pesh by eating pork which was required by Bhai Mani SIngh JI and give to Baba Ji by Bhai Sangat Singh. Kavi Seva Singh states

ਝਟ ਕਰ ਝਟਕਾ ਸੂਰ ਕਾ, ਮਨੀ ਸਿੰਘ ਮੰਗਵਾਇ
ਸੰਗਤ ਸਿੰਘ ਥੀਂ ਆਦਿ ਲੈ ਬੰਦਈਅਨ ਦੀਯੋ ਛਕਾਇ ।੧੫੦।
ਲਾਇ ਤਨਖਾਹ ਬਖਸ਼ੇ ਸਭੀ, ਨੀਲੰਬਰ ਪਹਿਨਾਇ।।
ਭਰਮ ਭੇਦ ਸਭ ਮਿਟ ਗਯੋ, ਭਈ ਏਕਤਾ ਆਇ।੧੪੧।Shaheed Bilas

Since when did a Tankha consist of doing jhatka of a pig and eating it ? Which rehatnama is this stated. In fact, eating pig is a kurehit according to the rehatname. This passage also mentions through this pesh differences were abolished and unity among the panth came. How would doing jhatka on pig make things better. Why is it Bhanga mentions elsewhere that Jhatka was performed when Guru Sahib first met Madho Das ( Banda Singh Bahadur ji)? What does Jhatka have to do with anything of meeting people and doing pesh on someone?

Why is it not so clear that there has been an elaborate scheme by anti-panthic nindaks to defame Baba Banda SIngh Bahadur Ji.

Bhai Kulbir singh jio

You wrote

Baba jee was a Brahmgyani and the testimony of five senses is not more authentic than Baba jee's personality.

My response

You have been given enough citations starting from Bhai Koer singh's Gurbilass patshahi 10 about Baba Banda singh's misconduct.
I myself did not know about these negative comments about Baba Banda singh till some people started projecting him as the only
saviour of sikhs and presented others including Mata Sundri ji as traitors. It was something i simply did not believe. That is the reason
his past was looked into to know why mainstream khalsa went against him. Then we came to know about such inconsistencies in his
conduct. You can term one source as faulted but All these sources cann't be wrong.

Now you write him a Brahmagiani. You are a rehatwan Gurmukh and know for attaining that position one has to transcend maya.In short
words one has to have control on Kam,krodh,lobh,moh,hankar. Path to brahmgiani avastha is borne out of bhagti of years.

Please give your views on his second marriage when his first wife was alive. Please do not tell that he did not do it. He was above 50 when he
conducted this marriage.

Sukhdeep singh ji

Kesar singh wrote part of bansvalinama at dera of baba Banda singh Bahadar .It is mentioned by Padam in the beginning.
You agree that five singhs were sent by Guru ji with Banda singh but bansvalinama does not mention it.

Three singhs mentioned in bansvalinama are mentioned as merchants with whom baba Banda singh has dialogue as written there.

Your questions

1.If Banda Singh Bahadur claimed Gurship then why is the letter addressed to Sikh sangat according to the wishes of Sache Paatshah ( Guru Gobind Singh JI)?

My response

That letter or hukamnama was written in 1710. Bnada singh joined khalsa in 1708. But if you have a look at that letter it says " I onkar , Fateh darshan". There waheguru ji ki fateh is substituted by Fateh darshan.

Sukhdeep singh wrote

2. Did the Muslims dress Baba Ji in red or was he already wearing red in Gurdas Nangal?

My response

Sources say that red dress was introduced by Banda singh ji when he was free.Read Kavi sewa singh works on Bhai mani singh ji.

Sukhdeep singh wrote

3. Where the Singhs at Gurdas Nangal follower of Guru Sahib or Baba Ji. For example, when the eye witness historian to the Singhs shaheedi mentions how a worried mother told the authorities her son was not sikh and the boy responded I dont know who this mother is I am faithful follower of the Guru which Guru was he referring to . Baba Ji or Guru Sahib?

Respnse

There was a difference of opinion between singhs in Banda's camp all along. But singhs opposed to him did not leave him.You need to see letter of Bhai mani singh to Mata sundri ji in that he mentions about Baba Banda singh quote" There is a rumour that Banda singh has escaped from prison.May God be with him" unquote That indicates inspite of differences with Banda singh mainstream khalsa kept relations with banda singh.That is how dispute for control of Harmandir sahib was settled in a peaceful manner.


Sukhdeep singh wrote

3. Did Mata Sahib kaur have an adopted son name Ajit Singh who had a son name hatthi singh? If not, why does Bansvalinama mention this?

My response

The chapter is titled as ajit singh. Ajit singh started styling himself as Guru of sikhs.Mata sundri ( It was mata sundri ji who adopted him) had disowned him.

Sukhdeep singh wrote

4. What year did Baba Ji claim to be Guru? Keep in mind he left to Punjab in 1708 and became shaheed 8 years later. He was in Gurdas Nangal for about 8 months. Did he claim Gurship after or before minting coins in praise of Guru Sahib.

He did not live in Punjab all the time.He had set up a dera near jammu .Dates are given in an earlier post. When he came to Gurdaspur area it was from there.History records that in later part of his life he made forays into Punjab from hills conducting guerrilla warfare and then retreat to
hills.


Sukhdeep singh wrote

5. Why do the contemporary sources of Baba Jis time refer to Baba Ji as a " Nanak Panthi".

I do believe him to be an amritdhari.Present sources present him bairagi or Hindu.That is the mischief they are playing and raking up an issue to present him to be the only saviour of sikhs and present khalsa as a coward traitors.


Sukhdeep singh wrote
Also, you are incorrect in saying Binod SIngh was the first jathedar of the Khalsa Dal. The first jathedar of Khalsa Dal was the humble servant Nawab Kapoor Singh. He was blessed with siropa by Panj Pyaare which included the following Gursikhs: Baba Deep Singh, Budh Singh ( grandfather of Maharaja Ranjit SIngh) Jassa SIngh ( Ramgharia) , hari Singh and Karam Singh.

My response

Baba Binod singh ji was first jathedar of Budha dal that later on formed Dal Khalsa .They were all tat khalsa people and Nihung singhs.

Bhai sukhdeep singh ji

There are other sources also that says that Guru sahib did jhatka at dera of Madho Dass(later Baba Banda singh ji) Guru kian sakhian is one of those.

Dispute between Banda singh's followers and mainstream sikhs had been settled by Bhai mani singh ji in a peaceful manner.He took two slips.On one he wrote khalsa salutation of "waheguru ji ka khalsa" that represented mainstream Khalsa. On second he wrote " Fateh Darshan" and it represented followers of Banda singh. After sometime slip with waheguru ji ka khalsa floated and control was handed over to mainstream sikhs.

After sometime on another occasion Bandai khalsa led by Amar singh Nibber(who was successor of Baba Banda singh) came to harmadir sahib with his followers and wanted control of shrine. This when decision was made by arranging a wrestling bout which mainstream khalsa won.

Rattan singh Bhanghu is wrong when he writes that they were made to eat pork. I personally do not believe that Guru sahib did kill goats at madho dass dera or mainstream khalsa brought pork inside Darbar sahib.

Below is a true copy of Hukamnama issued by Baba Banda singh ji Bahadar on 12th Poh( about december 26, 1710
addressed to Khalsa of Jaunpur

Quote

Seal

ੴ Fath Darshan

This is the order of Sri Sacha Sahib. The Guru shall save entire khalsa.Repeat Guru Guru; the life shall be purified.
You are the khalsa of great akal purakh.On seeing this Hukam, repair to the presence, wearing the five arms.Live
according to rehat of khalsa.Do not use Bhang, tobocco, post,wine or any other intoxicant.Do not eat meat, fish and onion.
Commit no theft, adultery or any sexual immorality. We have brought about age of satyuga. Love one another.

I enjoin that he who lives according to rehat of khalsa shall be saved by the Guru.

Poh 12 Sammat 1 Lines 10

Unquote

This testifies that Baba ji was a khalsa sikh contrary to propaganda by some vested interests these days.

This also testifies substitution of ੴ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤਹਿ ॥ by ੴ Fateh Darshan and forbidding eating of onions as mentioned
by Sukhdeep singh quoting Kesar singh chhibber.

So which historical records are acceptable then? None?

Quote

So which historical records are acceptable then? None?

All historical records are acceptable to the extent that they are in accordance to Gurmat. The above derogatory references to Baba Banda Singh jee are not believable as there are too many holes in these accounts e.g. so called Tat Khalsa eating pork and also forcing so called supporters of Baba jee to consume meat etc.

Kulbir Singh

Quote

"That letter or hukamnama was written in 1710. Bnada singh joined khalsa in 1708. But if you have a look at that letter it says " I onkar , Fateh darshan". There waheguru ji ki fateh is substituted by Fateh darshan."

Do you mean to tell me there is no possibility that someone tampered with the letters and wrote "Darshan Fateh ", instead of traditional fateh. If noboby tampered with the letter then how do you explain the onions being mentioned.

Keep in mind the letter is not the hukums of Baba Ji instead its the Hukums of Guru Ji given to sangat. The letter starts off with "Sri Sache Sahib Jee Da Hukum Hai" meaning this is the orders of the true master. If this letter as you claim is proof of Banda Singh Bahadur Ji claiming Guru and straying from Sikhi then I must say this is weak evidence. The letter is addressed to Sarbat Khalsa indirectly by Guru Sahib through his humble servant Baba Banda Singh Ji Bahadur Ji. Meaning Baba Ji wrote the letter of Guru Sahibs hukums on behalf of Guru Sahib. In 1708 , Guru Gobind SIngh Ji was in Deccan. He was far away from sangat up north and did not have contact with them. The letter was written on behalf of Guru Sahib to remind the Khalsa of the imporatnce of having faith in the Guru, jaap Gurmat Naam and keeping the Gurus rehat. Nowhere in the letter does he mention Guru Sahib said Baba Ji is now Guru. If he wanted to claim Guruship he would have wrote this in the letter.

Quote

2. Did the Muslims dress Baba Ji in red or was he already wearing red in Gurdas Nangal?

My response

Sources say that red dress was introduced by Banda singh ji when he was free.Read Kavi sewa singh works on Bhai mani singh ji.

Kavi Seva Singh was not a contemporary of Baba Ji . The Muslim historians who were contemporaries of Baba Ji have written that him and the Singhs dressed like fakirs. The fakirs in those days did not wear red. Fakirs were known for their simple black attire. Red is not a simple color. Refer to the ancient Muslim historian Khafi Khan in his description of Baba Ji and the Singhs.

Also refer to the writing of C.R. Williams of Bengal who was a civilian officer of the British. He mentions how Baba Ji was dressed in Red turban , golden plated chola, and garland of polmegrates ( red fruit) . It was at this time that the common Muslims and the British assumed he was a Guru. The Muslims authorities dressed him as a guru/king for strategic reasons.

Quote

3. Where the Singhs at Gurdas Nangal follower of Guru Sahib or Baba Ji. For example, when the eye witness historian to the Singhs shaheedi mentions how a worried mother told the authorities her son was not sikh and the boy responded I dont know who this mother is I am faithful follower of the Guru which Guru was he referring to . Baba Ji or Guru Sahib?

Respnse

There was a difference of opinion between singhs in Banda's camp all along. But singhs opposed to him did not leave him.You need to see letter of Bhai mani singh to Mata sundri ji in that he mentions about Baba Banda singh quote" There is a rumour that Banda singh has escaped from prison.May God be with him" unquote That indicates inspite of differences with Banda singh mainstream khalsa kept relations with banda singh.That is how dispute for control of Harmandir sahib was settled in a peaceful manner.

If Baba Ji claimed Gurship then no Gursikh in their right mind would socialize with them. This is basic maryada! No Gursikh can socialize with fake Gurus. The Singhs of those days are nothing like todays Sant Samaj.

You youself have quoted Shaheed Bilas in another post. Shaheed Bilas also mentions Bandei Khalsa only became part of the panth again only after the tankhia of Baba Banda Singh Bahadur Ji of eating the jhatka of a pig. Now you are saying you dont believe Banda Singh Bahadur was told to eat pig. You also say you dont believe in Rattan Singhs mentioning of Guru Sahib did jhatka at Baba Jis ashram. If you dont fully accept the contents such text then why do you accept the mention of Baba Ji claiming Gurship. Give the reason why you believe this and give the evidence to back up your reason. So far you have provided very flimsy ( weak ) evidence. Dont tell me because there are many sources that say the same thing. None of these sources were written during Baba Jis time and each sourch has just copied one another. Some one invented a fake oral tradition and then it was just written from text to text without being questioned.

Quote

5. Why do the contemporary sources of Baba Jis time refer to Baba Ji as a " Nanak Panthi".

I do believe him to be an amritdhari.Present sources present him bairagi or Hindu.That is the mischief they are playing and raking up an issue to present him to be the only saviour of sikhs and present khalsa as a coward traitors.

I dont think you understand what I am saying. If Baba Ji had his own sect then why do contemporary historians of his time refer to him as a "Nanak Panthi" ( follower of the Guru)? In the contemporary text "Akhabrat i darbar i Muallah" there is mention that "the Nanak Panthi ( Baba Ji) has made a dera in Kalanaur, and he has told the Singhs not to hassle the Muslims".

Quote

Sukhdeep singh wrote
Also, you are incorrect in saying Binod SIngh was the first jathedar of the Khalsa Dal. The first jathedar of Khalsa Dal was the humble servant Nawab Kapoor Singh. He was blessed with siropa by Panj Pyaare which included the following Gursikhs: Baba Deep Singh, Budh Singh ( grandfather of Maharaja Ranjit SIngh) Jassa SIngh ( Ramgharia) , hari Singh and Karam Singh.

My response

Baba Binod singh ji was first jathedar of Budha dal that later on formed Dal Khalsa .They were all tat khalsa people and Nihung singhs.

Buddha Dal and Tarna Dal sprung from Dal Khalsa. Originally Dal Khalsa was the central authority of the panth and its first leader was Nawab Kapoor Singh JI. . Later for tactiful reasons the Dal was broken into two. The Budda Dal ( old army )did parchar of Sikhi and took care of the Gurdwaras and the Taruna Dal ( young army) were the front line warriors during the battles. Some time after the massacre of Banda Singh Bahadur Ji and the Singhs, in fear of a revolt the authorities wanted to make amends with the Singhs . Zakria Khan the governor of Lahore sent a Gursikh representative ( Bhai Subegh Singh) to the Dal Khalsa which was lead by Nawab Kapoor Singh.

I was talking to a sanatanist the other day and they too are of the opnion that Buddha Dal and Taruna Dal existed from the times of Guru Sahib. But historically this is not true. Dal Khalsa was formed after Banda Singh Bahadur Jis shaheedi. It was formed at a time when Singhs were scattered in jungles and they needed a central figure. Then from there the Buddha Dal and Taruna Dal was originated. Please quote the reference/evidence ( no sanatan sources please) which states Binod Singh was first jathedar of Dal Khalsa and Buddha Dal came before Dal Khalsa.

Sukhdeep singh ji

No one tampered with Hukamnama. Its original copy is available till today.Let us not make our own inventions to justify something.

1k oankar waheguru ji ki fateh is given by Guru Sahib,father of khalsa.It has deeper meanings. His changing it to Fateh darshan does not
make any sense. SALUTATION BY gURU sAHIB has deeper spiritual meanings. Changing it alters core sikh teachings.

Sikhs were humble in those times.When Zakriya Khan offered jagir no one came forward to claim it.History says fhat Kapoor singh was looking
after horse stable.Sikhs gathered and passed a resolution to give this jagir to Kappor singh.

It was khalsa dal that was known as Dal khalsa later on. Nihungs bifurcated into Budha dal and tarna dal later.

I am not aware of which santanists you are talking about. This term was coined by chelas of Mcleod in the recent past.There were no santanists in sikhi till then and there are none now in India as well.

Inder Singh Jee, we are not interested in any type of pseudo history. You have not provided any references on Buddha Dal existing before Dal khlsa. Its common knowledge that Budda Dal and Tarna Dal came after Dal Khalsa, and the first jathedar of Dal Khalsa was Nawab Kapoor Singh Ji.

You have not answered half of my questions nor have you provided any reliable sources. You go as far to refer to Gurbilas ( Koer Singh) as a reliable source the same text that says Guru Sahib removed the heads of 5 goat not Panj Pyaare the same text that says Guru Sahib worshipped Chandi. Then you keep talk about Ratta Singh Bhangu who states the Singhs use to do Chandi Jhatka ( animal sacrifices to Durga) . We have to filter out such hindu beliefs. When we read we have to take whats in accordance to Gurmat and discard the rest.

Stating Banda Singh claimed himself to be a guru and the Singhs did not disassociate with him is a comple joke. No singh would ever associate with a self proclaiming Guru. Such thinking does not take Rehat Maryada into consideration. If your belief that Baba Banda Singh Bahadur Ji claimed Gurship just because some letter says Darshan Fateh then this too is a joke. This is weak evidence and I dont undestand why you keep referring to this weak evidence.I no longer have anytime to listen to the slanderous remarks of a Gurmukh-Saint. Listening to such remarks is as bad as given such remarks.


" The life history of Banda Singh has suffered the most at their hands under wrong notions. He has been slandered for and accused of things of which he was never guilty. Bhangu Rattan Singh is a Sikh writer of integrity and is generally reliable, though his account of Banda Singh is faulty on certain points" Dr. Ganda Singh

Inder Singh jeeo,

You write:

Quote

Rattan singh Bhanghu is wrong when he writes that they were made to eat pork. I personally do not believe that Guru sahib did kill goats at madho dass dera or mainstream khalsa brought pork inside Darbar sahib.

So if Bhanghu is wrong for the pork point, can he not be wrong for other things as well? Seems like you yourself are accepting that historical accounts can have half truths in them and can have wrong information in them as well. So it is not safe to say we should only accept these accounts as much as they call inline with Gurmat?

Baba jee was a Gurmukh who followed Gurmat to the fullest. Your point about him being married again is also baseless. By your logic we should also accept stories that Guru Har Rai jee married 7 sisters. These are blasphemous remarks.

Truth is that Mughal propaganda gave way to many false histories about Baba jee.

Later on you posted:

Quote

This testifies that Baba ji was a khalsa sikh contrary to propaganda by some vested interests these days.

So now you are agreeing that Baba jee was a Gurmukh?

Preetam Singh

Sukhdeep Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Inder Singh Jee, we are not interested in any type
> of pseudo history. You have not provided any
> references on Buddha Dal existing before Dal
> khlsa. Its common knowledge that Budda Dal and
> Tarna Dal came after Dal Khalsa, and the first
> jathedar of Dal Khalsa was Nawab Kapoor Singh Ji.
>
> You have not answered half of my questions nor
> have you provided any reliable sources. You go as
> far to refer to Gurbilas ( Koer Singh) as a
> reliable source the same text that says Guru Sahib
> removed the heads of 5 goat not Panj Pyaare the
> same text that says Guru Sahib worshipped Chandi.
> Then you keep talk about Ratta Singh Bhangu who
> states the Singhs use to do Chandi Jhatka ( animal
> sacrifices to Durga) . We have to filter out such
> hindu beliefs. When we read we have to take whats
> in accordance to Gurmat and discard the rest.
>
> Stating Banda Singh claimed himself to be a guru
> and the Singhs did not disassociate with him is a
> comple joke. No singh would ever associate with a
> self proclaiming Guru. Such thinking does not take
> Rehat Maryada into consideration. If your belief
> that Baba Banda Singh Bahadur Ji claimed Gurship
> just because some letter says Darshan Fateh then
> this too is a joke. This is weak evidence and I
> dont undestand why you keep referring to this weak
> evidence.I no longer have anytime to listen to the
> slanderous remarks of a Gurmukh-Saint. Listening
> to such remarks is as bad as given such remarks.
>
>
> " The life history of Banda Singh has suffered the
> most at their hands under wrong notions. He has
> been slandered for and accused of things of which
> he was never guilty. Bhangu Rattan Singh is a Sikh
> writer of integrity and is generally reliable,
> though his account of Banda Singh is faulty on
> certain points" Dr. Ganda Singh

========================================================================================================

Sukhdeep singh ji

I have answered all your questions. When provided proof such as Baba banda singh changed khalsa salutation , you call the document tampered. You write that Kesar singh chhiber writing is tampered as it mentions Banda singh ordering sikhs not to take onions.Samething is
given in Banda singh's Hukamnama. So where does it stop?

Please read Dr Ganda singh's book carefully.It has footnotes that mostly refers to earlier writings such as mehma parkash, Twarikh guru khalsa ,panth parkash for his research. He also gives photocopy of Hukamanama of Baba banda singh which is being termed as fake.He also quotes persian sources that during war sikhs were crying "fateh darshan". He speaks highly of Baba Binod singh forays for food outside catching Moghal sources unaware. He writes about his dera and his second marriage.He gives his personal opinion afterwards in the book about Baba Banda singh.

Point to note is that Banda singh did his job well to begin with and stood tall during his last days. We give him full credit for that.Mainstream sikhs Mata sundri ji, Baba Binod singh and his tat khalsa are vilified by some these days.That is not correct.If they differed with Baba Banda singh,they had reasons for doing that.

Baba Binod singh ji was a respected gursikh. Bhai Kahan singh Nabha writes in Mahankosh about him

ਦਸ਼ਮੇਸ਼ ਦਾ ਹਜ਼ੂਰੀ ਤੇਹਣ ਸਾਹਿਬਜ਼ਾਦਾ, ਜਿਸ ਨੂੰ ਦਸ਼ਮੇਸ਼ ਨੇ ਅਬਿਚਲਨਗਰ ਤੋਂ ਬੰਦੇ ਬਹਾਦੁਰ ਦੀ ਸਹਾਇਤਾ ਲਈ ਪੰਜਾਬ ਭੇਜਿਆ ਸੀ, ਅਤੇ ਇਸ ਧਰਮਵੀਰ ਨੇ ਪੰਥ ਦੇ ਨਾਲ ਹੋਕੇ ਬਹੁਤ ਜੰਗ ਜਿੱਤੇ.
The Hajuri Sahibzada of Guru Gobind Singh, who was sent to help Banda Bahadur in Punjab and fought many battles for Religion like a Warrior.

He was well read in sikh scriptures and had prepared a copy of Dasam Granth sahib. Dr Tarlochan singh( A companion of Bhai Randhir Singh ji who translated Bhai sahib's autobiography) wrote a series of articles in The Sikh review , Calcutta in 1950s.There he mentions about scholarly works of Bhai Binod singh ji.

Quote

Some of the prominent Sikhs such as Baba Binod Singh (mentioned in the letter and probably staying at that time with Bhai Mani Singh), Baba Gurbakhsh Singh and Sukha Singh prepared their own copies from the compiled copy. I have not seen the copies prepared by Baba Gurbakhsh Singh and Bhai Mani Singh but if a search is made I think they can still be found.

I have seen the copy prepared by Baba Binod Singh which contains 28 pages written in Guru Gobind Singh's own hand. Binod Singh's descendents presented this copy of the Dasm Granth to Maharaja Ranjit Singh's durbar and they received Rs. 125/- per month as a gift for it. It then came to the Patiala durbar and until 1947 the descendents of Baba Binod Singh were getting Rs. 25/- per month.

Baba Binod Singh was a direct descendent of Baba Dasu, son of Guru Angad. Baba Binod Singh was also one of the five apostles under whose guidance Banda Bahadur was supposed to work at the instructions of Guru Gobind Singh. So a copy prepared by Baba Binod Singh is an authentic and direct copy of the originally compiled version by Bhai Mani Singh. This Dasm Granth is at present in the Moti Bagh Palace, Patiala, and I had an opportunity to study it in detail some time ago.

Unquote

We should be careful when terming such Gursikhs as traitors.

Pritam singh ji

I also wrote that apart from rattan singh Bhanghu there are other texts that says similar transgressions about Baba Banda singh ji. Writers do make mistakes that is why we should test it with other sources as well. It is not right to trash the whole text because of a few mistakes here and there.What about other sources that say similar accounts about Baba Banda singh.Shall we reject all of them.

His second marriage is well documented by Dr Ganda singh after visiting his dera near Jammu. He has given names off his springs as well in his book in detail. His second marriage is also a part of Frequently asked questions on many sites.

Do not equate our guru sahibans with anyone else be it Banda singh or baba binod singh etc.

Please read my post again and do not quote it out of context.I wrote that these days some sources are projecting Baba Banda singh as bairagi sadhu and not even a sikh. For example There is an organization in New York called Baba Banda singh Bahadar society.They call bairagi mandal head from ludhiana , Bawa KK , and honour him on Banda singh's day.he also tours Canada. Then there are some who call him Hindu and not even a sikh. My quote was that he was a Khalsa.

Khalsa can stray also.Every khalsa does not become a Gurmukh though the goal is to become a Gurmukh.

Finally if one wants to eulogize some one he has every right to do so.No one should object to that. But we should desist from name calling other sikh yodhas who sacrificed their lives for sikh cause.

Ganda singh is a very well respected historian. And we should think twice before rejecting writings of a historian who does an honest professional and well researched job.

I think it would be erroneous to dismiss each and every single historical text just because the events do not hold up to khalsa ideals. At this rate what proof do you have that of any of Baba Banda Singh ji's life events. Why cannot what you say about Baba ji dismissed? What proof can be taken for this? Which historical source can you cite ? If you say Baba Banda Singh had bakshish of Guru Maharaj then same thing goes for Baba Binod Singh too.

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Some of the prominent Sikhs such as Baba Binod Singh (mentioned in the letter and probably staying at that time with Bhai Mani Singh), Baba Gurbakhsh Singh and Sukha Singh prepared their own copies from the compiled copy. I have not seen the copies prepared by Baba Gurbakhsh Singh and Bhai Mani Singh but if a search is made I think they can still be found.

I have seen the copy prepared by Baba Binod Singh which contains 28 pages written in Guru Gobind Singh's own hand. Binod Singh's descendents presented this copy of the Dasm Granth to Maharaja Ranjit Singh's durbar and they received Rs. 125/- per month as a gift for it. It then came to the Patiala durbar and until 1947 the descendents of Baba Binod Singh were getting Rs. 25/- per month.

Baba Binod Singh was a direct descendent of Baba Dasu, son of Guru Angad. Baba Binod Singh was also one of the five apostles under whose guidance Banda Bahadur was supposed to work at the instructions of Guru Gobind Singh. So a copy prepared by Baba Binod Singh is an authentic and direct copy of the originally compiled version by Bhai Mani Singh. This Dasm Granth is at present in the Moti Bagh Palace, Patiala, and I had an opportunity to study it in detail some time ago

The letter you are referring to was written by Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji and addressed to Mata Sahib Kaur JI. Nowhere in the letter does it mention Binod Singh writing Sri Dasam Granth it only mentions Binodh Singhs son passing away. Dont forget Binodh Singhs son stayed in Gurdas Nangal even though his father abandoned him Kahn Singh stuck it out with the tough singhs. These Singhs were tough as nails. They stay alive they boiled and eat the leaves of the trees. When the leaves were all out they they made atta out of the trees bark. When caught and heading to the executioner they would should out " take me first" such was their spirit to attain the highest gift of shaheedi for their dharam. I wouldnt call someone who abandonds SInghs in a time of need as a great leader especialy someone who abandons their own flesh and blood.

Im sure Baba Binod Singh was a good Singh at one point. If he wasnt he would have not been selected by Panj Pyaarey. But somtimes dire siutations can make a person bend and turn their back. It seems like such was the case for Binod Singh. Just because he was from the Gurus bloodline doesnt make him Gurmukh. The biggest Manmukhs in Sikh history are from the Gurus bloodline. Family members of Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji, Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji, and Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji tried to kill them. Most of the people puratan Gursikhs could not do roti beti da sanjh was with members of the Gurus blood line ( Dhir mal, Ram Rai).

You are making alot of stuff up about Binod Singh which is simply not true. The panth would never select him as leader as he has proven he did not have the courage to lead the panth during difficult times. He was never jathedar of Dal Khalsa or Buddha Dal. First Jathedar of Dal Khalsa was Nawab Kapoor Singh. When it split into two; Nawab Kapoor Singh became jathedar of Buddha Dal.

Another point to note is that Binod Singh left Saath of all the Singhs in Gurdas Nangal. This was totally contrary to Gurmat. When one Gursikh has a good idea towards how to fight in the battle, they cannot go against the rest of the Gursikhs. Even if the decision was not a good move by Baba Banda Singh jee, although I think it was, Binod Singh should have stood with the rest of Singh's decision.

How can one Singh out of Panj make a unilateral decision and just do whatever they want contrary to the rest of the Panj? This is not Gurmat.

Binod Singh was a traitor because he left Gurdas Nangal on his own, to save his own life. Baba jee is a Mahaan Shaheed Brahmgyani Gurmukh. To even entertain an idea otherwise is blasphemy.

Guru Sahib Sumat Bakhshan!

Preetam Singh

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Ganda singh is a very well respected historian. And we should think twice before rejecting writings of a historian who does an honest professional and well researched job.

Dr Ganda Singh was definitely a well respected historian but please bear in mind that he was a strict historian and wrote like a professional historian based on old texts like Pracheen Panth Prakash of Bhangu and Bansavali etc. We contest that for this reason, some of his views about Baba Banda Singh jee Bahadur should be taken with a grain of salt. Here is the summary of our views on Baba Banda Singh jee:

1. Baba jee was the first Sikh leader after the Guru era and was hand picked by Guru Sahib Himself. To believe that Baba jee faltered so badly as Bhangu writes, brings into question Guru Sahib's handpicked choice and wisdom. Never have Guru Sahib's handpicked generals or leaders failed in history e.g. the original 22 Manjis of preachers by Siri Guru Amardaas jee or Bhai Bidhi Chand or Punj Pyare etc. never faltered like this. So Baba jee too did not falter as some historians like Bhangu have written. They were most likely misinformed and fell prey to propaganda of the Mughal govt. and anti-Sikh forces of the time. To discredit Baba jee meant to discredit the political aspirations of the Sikhs.

2. There are many errors in the history written by Bhangu and his contemporaries e.g. writing that Tat Khalsa used to eat meat and Baba jee stopping them, forcing so called Bandai Khalsa to eat pork soup at Siri Harmandir Sahib, Guru Sahib killed 5 goats instead of 5 Pyare etc. If we have rejected these notions then notions to discredit Guru Sahib's handpicked choice - Baba Banda Singh jee - should also be rejected because the ultimate amazing Shaheedi of Baba jee proves that he was not a fallen Sikh nor were his 700 companions who embraced Shaheedi extremely gloriously.

3. The allegation of replacing the Sikh salutation with Fateh Darshan too does not hold ground because Fateh Darshan is not a slogan but a short form of Fateh itself. Secondly it's a very frivolous thing and hardly big enough to discredit everything Baba jee did.

4. The allegation that Baba jee used to stop Singhs from eating fish and meat seems ridiculous. Who can consider this to be an allegation? Only Bhangu or his contemporaries.

5. Another allegation on Baba jee is that Guru Sahib had asked him to not get married but he did. This too is a ludicrous allegation because Guru Sahib promoted Grehsthi (householder) jeevan and could have never asked Baba jee to desist from getting married. There was nothing wrong if he got married.

6. The allegation that he got married twice should be rejected the same way as we reject the notion that our Guru Sahibaan got married more than once. We don't believe that any of our Guru Sahib kept more than one wife at the same time, with the exception of Mata Sahib Kaur, who was wed to Guru Sahib spiritually but not in the worldly sense.

7. A person who has fallen from grace and from Sikhi could not have commanded the respect among Singhs as Baba jee did nor he could have attained the glorious Shaheedi that he did. If he was a fallen Gursikh, then were all 700 Singhs who got Shaheed with him, ignorant and naive that they ignored Baba jee's Kurehits and still stuck with him?

8. Attack on Siri Harmandir Sahib occurred merely 30 years ago but look at the misinformation there is with respect to it. This is the age of information but still people have been misled about this genocide of Sikhs. Imagine how bad the things were back then. The accounts written 80 years after Baba jee's Shaheedi and that too written by persons who did not have correct Gurmat understanding, can hardly be accurate. For this reason, such anti-Gurmat ideas about Baba jee should be ignored.

Rest we are going in circles and repeating the same thing over and over again. It's better to agree to disagree on this issue. We are going to stand with Baba jee to get Guru Sahib's Khushi and also the Khushi of Baba jee in Dargah. What face will we show to Baba jee in Dargah if we slander him here in this world? So, this head of ours is forever lying in the feet of Baba Banda Singh jee and other Gursikhs who became Manzoor-e-Nazar of Guru Sahib.

Kulbir Singh