Panaa 1 Dasam Granth

Khalsa ji,

I am confused about the following shabd from Dasam Granth

ਜੇ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਉਚਰਿ ਹੈ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿ ਹੈ ॥
jae ham ko paramaesar ouchar hai | thae sabh narak kundd mehi par hai |
Those who call me God, will fall into the pit of hell.

When I first read this I thought Guru Sahib was maybe being humble, but as I learnt more, my understanding is that Guru is god and from conversing with elder Gursikhs they have stated that this pankti is aimed at the reader, so if i was to call myself god i will go to hell........I know a lot of the time Guru Sahib isnt talking about himself, but the shabd is aimed at the reader, but at the beggining of this shabd Guru Sahib is talking about himself?

Any thoughts?

Veer Ji, as you were thinking earlier; I also understand like that. I do not think that HAMM is for readers. I simply understand that Guru Sahib is making us believe that He is PARAM PURAKH KO DAAS but not PARAM PURAKH himself.

i think hamm is referring to the ego, so those who call themselves/the ego God b/c otherwise Gurbani tells us that aap narayan kala dhar is jag meh parvario and gur parmeshar eiko jaan

I thought there is no difference between god and guru....so Guru Gobind Singh Ji was god.....???

ਜੇ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਉਚਰਿ ਹੈ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿ ਹੈ ॥

According to Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee, this pankiti is there to ensure that people don't forget the all-pervading Vaheguru and start calling the Guru-Jyoti in Siri Guru Dasmesh jee's body complete Vaheguru. It is true that Guru and Vaheguru are one and the same but at the same time Vaheguru is beyond that too. In order to avoid what happened to Avtaars like Siri Krishna, who ended up claiming that he was Vaheguru (refer to Bhagvad Gita), Siri Guru jee gave this Hukam that complete Vaheguru is not contained in the human body of Siri Guru jee.

Followers of Siri Krishna chant Hare Krishna and followers of Siri Ram Chander chant his Naam but the Sikhs of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee don't chant Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee's name but chant the Naam of Akal Purakh. There is another pankiti that is misunderstood by many:

ਜਪ੍ਹਉ ਜਿਨ੍‍ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਦੇਵ ਗੁਰੂ ਫਿਰਿ ਸੰਕਟ ਜੋਨਿ ਗਰਭ ਨ ਆਯਉ ॥6॥

The common English translation of this pankiti is: Whoever meditates on Guru Arjun Dayv, shall not have to pass through the painful womb of reincarnation ever again. ||6||

But is the above translation according to Gurmat? Does Gurmat promote chanting any other Naam but Satnaam (true Naam)? The correct translation of this pankiti is: Whoever chants (Vaheguru) through Guru Arjun Dev jee, never comes to the troublesome womb to take birth.

Chanting Naam through Guru Arjun Dev jee means to chant Naam after receiving Naam from Guru Sahib.

Gurbani is Agam Agaadh Bodh. May Guru Sahib forgive our mistaks while interpreting Gurbani.

Kulbir Singh

Ah I see, so Iv gone from one extreme to another lol, where as it is sort of a middle ground. Thanks.

ਜਪ੍ਹਉ ਜਿਨ੍‍ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਦੇਵ ਗੁਰੂ-----------------------

Veer Kulbir Singh Ji, u have suggested a not so popular interpretation for this Pankiti. Meanwhile a new dimension is also given to an important topic. -----------------------------------Naam Jaap, Akal Purakh, Satguru.-------------It seems a big subject.

"Through Satguru" Naam Jaap is OK. It is as per Gurmat. But does ਜਪ੍ਹਉ simply means "through Satguru" or more than that. Could it not be remembering Satguru? We have more Gurbani Pankities; which will need a new explanation; if we go with the point as suggested by you. e.g.

ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਭਗੌਤੀ ਸਿਮਰਿ ਕੈ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਈਂ ਧਿਆਇ ॥ ਫਿਰ ਅੰਗਦ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਅਮਰਦਾਸੁ ਰਾਮਦਾਸੈ ਹੋਈਂ ਸਹਾਇ ॥ ਅਰਜਨ ਹਰਿਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਨੋ ਸਿਮਰੌ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਹਰਿਰਾਇ ॥ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਹਰਿ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਧਿਆਈਐ ਜਿਸ ਡਿਠੇ ਸਭਿ ਦੁਖਿ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਤੇਗ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਸਿਮਰਿਐ ਘਰ ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਆਵੈ ਧਾਇ ॥ ਸਭ ਥਾਈਂ ਹੋਇ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੧॥

Bhul Chuk Maaf Hove Ji.

Quote

"Through Satguru" Naam Jaap is OK. It is as per Gurmat. But does ਜਪ੍ਹਉ simply means "through Satguru" or more than that. Could it not be remembering Satguru? We have more Gurbani Pankities; which will need a new explanation; if we go with the point as suggested by you. e.g.

Bhai MB Singh jeeo,

ਜਪ੍ਹਉ does not mean "through Guru" nor it is required to mean that. ਜਪ੍ਹਉ is pronounced as ਜਪਿਓ and the pankiti means: ਜਿਨਾਂ ਨੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਦੇ ਰਾਹੀਂ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਜਪਿਆ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਫੇਰ ਸੰਟਕ ਜੋਨੀ ਵਿਚ ਨਹੀਂ ਆਏ।

As you can see above, it is not required to do the meaning of "through Guru" from ਜਪ੍ਹਉ. This is a verb in past tense and or perhaps Present Perfect too in some cases. The meaning of "through Guru Arjun Dev" can be done because ਗੁਰੂ has dulankde in the end and ਅਰਜੁਨ is Mukta. If ਅਰਜੁਨ and ਗੁਰੂ had aunkad, then the meanings suggested by this Daas would have been impossible.

One of the meanings of Simar is to remember and remembering Guru Sahibaan or doing Dhyaan on them is not against Gurmat but in Gurmat only Naam Gurmantr is chanted or done Japp of. Other Dharmas say "Raam kee Jai" or "Krishan kee Jai" but Gurmat does not promote "Guru Nanak ki Jai". Instead Guru Sahib instructed us and gave us the slogan "Sat Sri Akaal". The aforementioned is based on a writing of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee.

Rest Bhai, Guru Sahib knows.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

Quote
Bhai Kulbir Singh ji

ਜੇ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਉਚਰਿ ਹੈ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿ ਹੈ ॥

According to Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee, this pankiti is there to ensure that people don't forget the all-pervading Vaheguru and start calling the Guru-Jyoti in Siri Guru Dasmesh jee's body complete Vaheguru. It is true that Guru and Vaheguru are one and the same but at the same time Vaheguru is beyond that too. In order to avoid what happened to Avtaars like Siri Krishna, who ended up claiming that he was Vaheguru (refer to Bhagvad Gita), Siri Guru jee gave this Hukam that complete Vaheguru is not contained in the human body of Siri Guru jee.
...................................................
ਜਪ੍ਹਉ ਜਿਨ੍‍ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਦੇਵ ਗੁਰੂ ਫਿਰਿ ਸੰਕਟ ਜੋਨਿ ਗਰਭ ਨ ਆਯਉ ॥6॥

The common English translation of this pankiti is: Whoever meditates on Guru Arjun Dayv, shall not have to pass through the painful womb of reincarnation ever again. ||6||

But is the above translation according to Gurmat? Does Gurmat promote chanting any other Naam but Satnaam (true Naam)? The correct translation of this pankiti is: Whoever chants (Vaheguru) through Guru Arjun Dev jee, never comes to the troublesome womb to take birth.

Vahiguroo reading what you have said above has made Chatrik a bit confused when he ponders on this pangti:


ਇਹਪਧਤਿਤੇਮਤਚੂਕਹਿਰੇਮਨਭੇਦੁਬਿਭੇਦੁਨਜਾਨਬੀਅਉ ॥
ਪਰਤਛਿਰਿਦੈਗੁਰਅਰਜੁਨਕੈਹਰਿਪੂਰਨਬ੍ਰਹਮਿਨਿਵਾਸੁਲੀਅਉ ॥੫॥
(ang 1409)

Chota veer

WE all agree Guru and Akal Purakh are to be considered "EEKO"; they are one; so when we read Gurbani, concentrate on Gurbani, meditate on Guru; meditate on Guru Arjan Dev, we meditate on Akal Purakh. When we DO NAAM JAPP; we JAPP; GURU ARJAN DEV JI in that way.

ਜਪ੍ਹਉ ਜਿਨ੍‍ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਦੇਵ ਗੁਰੂ means reading Gurbani , Sri Guru Granth Sahib and repeating THE NAME; which is meant for repeating.

Gurbani says GURU GURU GUR KARR MANN MERE; even then we repeat the GURMANTAR NAME; not simply GURU GURU. Similarly; RAM JAPPO JI AISE AISE understandably means GURMANTAR, not the word RAM. ----------------NAAM JAPPO does not mean repeat the word NAAM again and again. We wake up in the morning; not to repeat the word NAAM, NAAM, NAAM, NAAM, NAAM-------------------------On the same lines; ਜਪ੍ਹਉ ਜਿਨ੍‍ ਅਰਜੁਨ ਦੇਵ ਗੁਰੂ does not need to be understood, JAAP of NAAM other than GURMANTAR.

ਜੇ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਉਚਰਿ ਹੈ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿ ਹੈ ॥

Veer Kulbir Singh Ji, has given the meanings of above Pankiti. So, we need to feel the meanings. Guru is all in all for us; He is our ਪਰਮੇਸਰ, He is ਪਰਮੇਸਰ; yet He is not ਪਰਮੇਸਰ; as HE HIMSELF says.

Veer Ji,this is how I understand the above Pankities. It is my right to make mistakes.

Bhai MB Singh jeeo,

This is what Gurmat Vichaar is all about. It forces us to delve deeper in Gurbani and let our mind get touched by Gurbani. I am glad this thread prompted us to ponder upon Gurbani and try to understand the message of Gurbani.

Guru Sahib kirpa karan and allow us to do Vichaar of Gurbani and enable us to let Gurbani reside in our minds.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

Everyday I learn something new from this site. Thanks everyone for sharing their ideas on this.