Equality of women in the houshold

I am eager to learn and implement into my life the correct way a Sikh family should function. In today’s day and age women work shoulder to shoulder with men. Yet when a woman arrives home she continues to work in and around the house, cleaning and cooking with no assistance from the man.

Culturally, I understand it is traditional practice for the man to be the dominant figure in the house: if he commands then he is to be served, if he partakes in household chores it is frowned upon, there is also an element of ‘respect’ involved where the man is seen and spoken to as if of higher status than the female. How would this be perceived from a religious point of view?

Is it 'seva' to serve the husband/family? Will the male be required to give 'lekha' for having things done for him? Does a female benefit (from a religious point of view) from serving the family/ her husband?

In the olden days the man would be the bred-winner and the female would stay at home and look after the household chores. Today, women work equally hard outside of the home and even harder as they continue to work when they arrive home. Is this fair? Is it the duty/ destiny of women to live this lifestyle?

Would it be wrong for one to challenge this tradition in Sikh families? Should those that challenge this tradition be viewed as having a wrong and modern outlook on life?

In traditional sense, It is best that the man should be the one working outside the home and making money for the famliy, and the women should stay at home and look after family. We cannot approach family values in the Western sense, and expect that both Husband and wife can go to work and come home and look after household because there is much work to be in Sikhi households, especially with preparing food. You cannot simply order a box of pizza and feed your family like Non-Gursikhs do.

If money is tight and both parties have to work, than I think it is only fair that work should be split between the couples. This split doesnt neccessarily have to be with household work though, one can do more bhagtee for the both of them, while the other takes care of household chores. Either way, in Dargah both will be rewarded 50/50 so it doesn't matter how its done.

No matter what though, the tasks of bhagtee, kids, food etc. should be split up 50/50 in a way that is not more stressing for one partner over another.

Where did this idea come from that kamaaee is split 50/50 in dargah even if there are differences in the spirituality of each spouse? Is there anything to back this up? So a highly spiritual bibi loses lots of her kamaaee, possibly even up to half if she's married to a lousy Singh? Doesn't seem like a fair system. What if there's a Singh who does lots of kamaaee and he's married to a bibi who's not very adept at housework? Does the 50/50 split still happen?

Also I think there was an implication that cooking and cleaning (housework) are a distraction from bhagtee as if bhagtee is only possible while sitting down with eyes closed in a special room. There are many bibiaan who do bhagtee non-stop while cooking and cleaning and even while looking after children. I don't think this means their bhagtee is any less. Singhs shouldn't use the excuse of doing bhagtee to avoid housework altogether. Bibiaan are lucky that they usually do most of the seva for their families via cooking, cleaning, etc. Singhs shouldn't deprive themselves of serving their families in a similar way.

Learner Jee we should not follow the feminist model of the west. Yes, both are equal from religious point of view, but in family and society both have different roles to pay. A man should not act like a woman and neither should a woman act like a she-man. What is the shame if a woman retains her feminine side? The way a woman can take care of a baby in a motherly manner a man can never do even with the best of effort. Similarly if a man has a dominant role in the family, the children will also grow up with strong values. At the same time, playing a dominant role in the family does not mean a man can demean his wife. He should treat her with dignity and respect she deserves as his wife and the mother of his children.

The feminist model of equality is a failed model to follow as far as family is concerned. In the west it has only caused the downfall of the institution of marriage(67% divorce rate). Of course where a husband is abusive in a relationship it is better to separate from such a maggot because an impotent man who lifts his hand on a woman is not worthy to be called a man. A man is suppose to protect his wife like a Mardh not hit her.

In short a man does not need to act like a woman and neither does a woman need to act like a man. Treat each other with dignity and respect and implement Sikhi in your household, the entire family to eat together and do paath together, study and discuss Sikhi and Sikh history as a family. If you want to follow an example of how a man treats his wife look no further than the examples of the Gurus and how they treated their wives. Sikh bibis of today also need not look any further than the women of the Guru's household as examples to follow, those women were the ideal women, chaste, dignified and modest. These Gursikh bibis of the Guru's household were great mothers, wives, sisters and daughters.

Western society traditionally has actually been more segregated than traditional punjabi society in a lot of cases. Men and women worked and even lived in completely different spheres... men would go off to find work outside, living away from home, while women stayed behind to run the household. For most of Punjabi society though families have alwaye stayed together. Puratan Singhs and bibis who had farms had to both do the farm labour because of the nature of the work. And we know that both Singhs and bibian knew how to prepare food because everyone always worked together (and still do) to prepare langar.

So it's less of a question of what is appropriate for which gender, and more of a question of what works and helps keep the family in chardikala.

Japnaam Singh ji- I’m guessing Gurman Singh ji is saying that you have the option to dedicate half of your ‘kamaaee’ to your partner if you so wish to do so. Not that it automatically is split 50/50. Also I guess one could argue that the fruits reaped from doing ‘bhagtee’ when not doing the house work would be greater, simply because there is a greater amount of concentration and focus involved.

rsingh ji- Were the women in the Guru's time feminine? I believe that the likes of Mata Bhag Kaur were 6ft tall and fought in battle alongside Guru Gobind Singh Ji and other men wielding heavy guns and swords. I don’t think that is very feminine in the so called western traditional sense. Also, a woman who undertakes employed work and then comes home to do house chores, while the man sits in the living room watching football, does not make a woman more feminine.

Females such as Bibi Sahib Kaur. Sada Kaur and Mata Bhag Kaur are great examples of woman who had dominant roles and were regarded as equal to men- they were given the position to lead battalions and in some cases were the lone survivors of the war. This shows that
a) Woman are quite capable of protecting themselves without the aid of men. They have a Kirpan and the power of naam to assist them.
b) There is no clear distinguished ‘role’ allocated to a woman in the Sikh religion.

Also, the woman was given the same ‘Bana’ as the man during the making of the Khalsa Panth by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji, They are equally required to wear all 5K’s including the dastaar. This again signifies that the woman has equal status as the man and is not required to be feminine.

Sri Guru Amar Das Ji worked hard to lift the status of woman and to give them equality. He appointed women to positions of great responsibility, power and importance and he strongly opposed gender discrimination.

So the so called feminist model of the west which you suggest should be dismissed seems to me to be very much the model of the times of the Guru and the model that the likes of Guru Amar Das Ji worked hard to achieve, adopt and implement into society.

In my opinion, evidence shows that as a Sikh there is no set role of a man and a woman. Where in Gurbani/ Rehat does it state that women are to behave differently to men?

It saddens me to think that, amongst many other Sikh values that our Guru’s fought for, this is another value which has been lost and that our fellow Sikh have failed to preserve. Women are encouraged to be feminine, weak, and inferior.

Sk Ji - I think you put it brilliantly ‘it's less of a question of what is appropriate for which gender, and more of a question of what works and helps keep the family in chardikala’!

Ps I am merely responding to the posts above from a 'Learners' perspective. so please forgive me for any offence/mistakes caused/made above. I truely value everyones opnion and would like to thank you all for sharing your invaluable views.

rsingh Wrote:
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> Learner Jee we should not follow the feminist
> model of the west. Yes, both are equal from
> religious point of view, but in family and society
> both have different roles to pay. A man should not
> act like a woman and neither should a woman act
> like a she-man. What is the shame if a woman
> retains her feminine side? The way a woman can
> take care of a baby in a motherly manner a man can
> never do even with the best of effort. Similarly
> if a man has a dominant role in the family, the
> children will also grow up with strong values. At
> the same time, playing a dominant role in the
> family does not mean a man can demean his wife. He
> should treat her with dignity and respect she
> deserves as his wife and the mother of his
> children.
>
> The feminist model of equality is a failed model
> to follow as far as family is concerned. In the
> west it has only caused the downfall of the
> institution of marriage(67% divorce rate). Of
> course where a husband is abusive in a
> relationship it is better to separate from such a
> maggot because an impotent man who lifts his hand
> on a woman is not worthy to be called a man. A man
> is suppose to protect his wife like a Mardh not
> hit her.
>
> In short a man does not need to act like a woman
> and neither does a woman need to act like a man.
> Treat each other with dignity and respect and
> implement Sikhi in your household, the entire
> family to eat together and do paath together,
> study and discuss Sikhi and Sikh history as a
> family. If you want to follow an example of how a
> man treats his wife look no further than the
> examples of the Gurus and how they treated their
> wives. Sikh bibis of today also need not look any
> further than the women of the Guru's household as
> examples to follow, those women were the ideal
> women, chaste, dignified and modest. These Gursikh
> bibis of the Guru's household were great mothers,
> wives, sisters and daughters.

Spot on, brother. The Western version of equality is a selfish, anti-family, evil ideology that has destroyed community and family values. The shame is that we are losing our old values and adopting this gutter culture as-well.........a lot of the problems we are facing today are due to this.

"A man should act like a man and a woman should act like a woman"

Rsingh jee and Pehlvaan jee, what would that imply, in your view.

Japnaam Singh Wrote:
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> Where did this idea come from that kamaaee is
> split 50/50 in dargah even if there are
> differences in the spirituality of each spouse?
> Is there anything to back this up? So a highly
> spiritual bibi loses lots of her kamaaee, possibly
> even up to half if she's married to a lousy Singh?
> Doesn't seem like a fair system. What if there's
> a Singh who does lots of kamaaee and he's married
> to a bibi who's not very adept at housework? Does
> the 50/50 split still happen?
>
> Also I think there was an implication that cooking
> and cleaning (housework) are a distraction from
> bhagtee as if bhagtee is only possible while
> sitting down with eyes closed in a special room.
> There are many bibiaan who do bhagtee non-stop
> while cooking and cleaning and even while looking
> after children. I don't think this means their
> bhagtee is any less. Singhs shouldn't use the
> excuse of doing bhagtee to avoid housework
> altogether. Bibiaan are lucky that they usually
> do most of the seva for their families via
> cooking, cleaning, etc. Singhs shouldn't deprive
> themselves of serving their families in a similar
> way.

1) I didn't mean kamyiee is split 50/50 exactly , but since I'm sure exactly how kamyiee system works in Dargah to the precise form I just made a general statement. The main point being that by both Singh/Singhnee doing seva for each other they each collectively gain phal. It is certain that they do help to increase each other Kamyiee. For example if one of the partners is a Bramgyanee, it is almost guranteed that they would use their shaktee to take their spouse with them if they have not reached Bramgyan themselves.

2) I never implied that cooking and cleaning were a distraction from bhagtee, but that if the Singhnee is doing the housework, than the Singh should not just sit around and do nothing all day. They should use that opputrunity to do bhagtee or other forms of seva for the chardee kala of both partners.

I think throughout history movements such as that of Feminist have in a way ruined the traditional value of a family. I am not saying Feminism has been all wrong, but this whole equality thing of a man and a woman can not be literally done, no matter how hard we try. Yes it is bad when families frown upon having girls and get extremely overjoyed at having boys, whereas if one looks at it, a girl is an actual person carrying on a family's lineage. I think change of mindset starts from oneself. Our punjabi community is already at it's top of aborting girls. I think to answer your questions, it is best to see what values you hold, along with keeping your spouse's values in your mindset, and then seeing what works the best in your household. There is really not a simple answer. Some Bibiyaan work, along with keeping up with their household chores, whereas some can not handle everything all together. Some Bibiyaan want to work, and some don't. I think it is best to consult with your spouse and decide on what works for both of you, and then meet at a middle point. Usually Gursikhs or any normal family do not have piles of house chores that can not be taken care of in a matter of couple of hours.

If married, both the Singh and Singhnee should look at their spouse as a gursikh, first and foremost. This should automatically make you do sevaa no matter what. Sevaa is not only done for the sangat outside, but also for the one in your own house. Also keeping Gurmat Values should be a priority for both. If a family is not doing bhagtee together, or if they are really not interacting how a family should interact, then there is something wrong. If working outside is bringing negligence towards house or kids, then it is wise to stay home and keep those things a priority. Bringing back the whole equality thing. A mother can not provide the same as a father can, and a father can not provide what a mother can to a child. For a child, a mother is the first source which gives it the best Gurmat Values or any other values for that matter. While a father/husband can bring protection both financially and physically to his family, a wife can bring unity, pyaar, and a really good upbringing of kids, which in itself is a HUGE sevaa. It is just a matter of how you work things out in your household. Keep what the society thinks about gender role outside, and follow what you feel is right. But again Gurmat should be a priority for both, or else nothing will really work.

It's a man's world - but its nothing without a woman

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Where did this idea come from that kamaaee is split 50/50 in dargah even if there are differences in the spirituality of each spouse? Is there anything to back this up? So a highly spiritual bibi loses lots of her kamaaee, possibly even up to half if she's married to a lousy Singh? Doesn't seem like a fair system. What if there's a Singh who does lots of kamaaee and he's married to a bibi who's not very adept at housework? Does the 50/50 split still happen?

Japnaam Singh jeeo, these are ਦਰਗਾਹੀ ਗੱਲਾਂ but still based on the knowledge that has been gained by Sangat of Gurmukhs, Kamaaee is indeed given or shared with loving spouses or companions/friends but this split is not as the split is in this world. The Gurmukh with higher Avastha shares Kamaaee and the one with lower Avastha receives Kamaaee, without taking anything away from the giving Gurmukh. There is no doubt that Gurmukhs who become Mukat in Dargah, help out their loving relatives and companions.

The secret of the Pankitis like ਜਾਨੀ ਸੰਤ ਕੀ ਮਿਤ੍ਰਾਈ ॥ and ...ਕੇਤੀ ਛੁਟੀ ਨਾਲਿ ॥1॥ opens up in the next world. How does ਕੇਤੀ get released along with Mukat Gurmukhs? In any case this is not a subject of debate. One finds out about this as one progresses spirituality.

As for equality, this issue is being raised because in today's families the relationships have become superficial and there is no love in them. Did the question of equality ever arise between the loving relationship of Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee and his wife Bebe Kartar Kaur jee? Who was superior in their relationship? Did Bebe jee impose a condition on Bhai Sahib that she would do cooking only if Bhai Sahib did dishes? There was immense love between the two and they could sacrifice their life for each other. Mata Ghulab Kaur loved her husband to death and at first she was not into Sikhi but she memorized Baanis like Siri Sukhmani Sahib and Siri Baavan Akhri out of love for her husband. When her husband died, she could not bear the separation and became extremely Bairagi. She converted her Bairaag towards Parmarath (spirituality) and became one of the topmost Gurmukhs of all times.

Where there is love, there is sacrifice and there is no concept of equality there. One wants to sacrifice one's whole self for the other. Both would be caring and empathetic about each other. It would naturally make the household happier than heaven.

If both are Gurmukhs, then both would serve each other like Gurmukhs serve each other. Many times we see that some Pakhandis show so much Nimrata (humility) when they meet Gursikhs outside but when it comes to their Gurmukh wife, they treat her like trash and vice-versa. One can safely assume that such people are still far from Gurmat and that there is love lacking in their relationship. The base of any relationship is love and from real love the by-products like sacrifice, respect, empathy etc. sprout and such relationships that have love between them, are loving relationships and there is no question of equality there.

Kulbir Singh

Vah jee vah! Kamaal kartee Bhai Sahib!

100% agreed to Bhai Sahib. The sacrifice is totally missing in the relationships, all that is left is Demands. You do this and I will do this.
Think of this, is it possible that if one continues to sacrifice the other wont realize and wont be ready to give everything back with interest ? The funda of give and take needs to given up in this Pavitr relationship of Husband wife and each other should be ready to sacrifice for each other at all stages off course not at the cost of Gurmat. Guru Sahib Kirpa karn.

The earlier poster suggested a 50/50 split which seemed to imply that the higher avastha spouse would lose something. What you wrote now seems more in line with what I've heard in the past and I have no disagreement with it.

Regarding the equality issue, I wasn't advocating anything close to modern feminism. All I was saying was, bibiaan predominantly get the sevaa of serving their spouse and children through housework and this is something that they're lucky to do. This gives them humility and lots of other good qualities. Singhs ideally should not deprive themselves of the opportunity to serve as well. It doesn't have to be equal or be set to any set percentage. They should do it because it's good for them and because they want to serve their families, not to fit into any kind of feminist ideals.

The fact is that there's less of a willingness today to serve and be humble and this is particularly a problem within youth that are jatha from what I've seen. Instead of creating an environment where it's only bibiaan who do all sevaas, we should be encouraging Singhs to do sevaa too inside and outside their home so they too can develop humility. There's a local Singh here in Vancouver area who is very old and very chardi kala, he's been in the jatha for a very long time. He's a Sarblohi Singh and always invites us over for langar. Whenever we go, him and his Singhnee both serve whichever Gursikhs who come with full pyaar and humility. Both help in the cooking and the serving. This isn't feminism.

One more thing, drawing on Bhai Sahib and his Singhnee as an analogy doesn't always work because it would be extremely rare to be at their level. Bhai Sahib's Singhnee would not hold any resentments if she had to do all house work or if she had to feed unexpected guests, etc. but not all bibiaan are like that. Just something to keep in mind. It might not be helpful to pretend like we're Bhai Sahib and that our bibiaan are like Mata Kartar Kaur when doing so might not be in keeping with reality.

I completely agree with what Japnaam Singh has written. Sewa, of whatever kind, small or big, should always be done from the heart because if it isn't or if the one being served feels like they were served only because the server had to do it, hence did not enjoy serving them, then I don't think such sewa is worthy of the happiness of The Lord. When there is arrogance/resentment/pride behind a supposed good deed then the value of that deeds lessens.

And yes, woman or man, sikh or not, should always serve their families and others because it's serving God. That's something us, being humans, have been given the opportunity to do, no other creature has that priveledge. Serving your family should feel good to one if they love them, because when you love someone you want to please them and see them happy so therefore you show your love through your service to them. What else is there to it?!

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One more thing, drawing on Bhai Sahib and his Singhnee as an analogy doesn't always work because it would be extremely rare to be at their level. Bhai Sahib's Singhnee would not hold any resentments if she had to do all house work or if she had to feed unexpected guests, etc. but not all bibiaan are like that. Just something to keep in mind. It might not be helpful to pretend like we're Bhai Sahib and that our bibiaan are like Mata Kartar Kaur when doing so might not be in keeping with reality.

This reminds me of an old Punjabi folk saying - ਜੋੜੀਆਂ ਜਗ ਥੋੜੀਆਂ, ਨਰੜ ਬਥੇਰੇ। Good loving couples are made in heaven. When two people in a marriage come together to payoff a negative Karmic debt, then there is natural resentment in the relationship but if Gurmat is followed, such negative effects can be eliminated. Anything is possible with Gurmat.

You are correct in saying that everyone can't become Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee and Bebe Kartar Kaur jee. And second thing is that love is not something that you can produce on your own but I guess slowly over time, by being nice and sweet to each other can produce the feeling of love. Once there is love in a relationship, there is no need to do any other effort to make this relationship successful. By following artificial man-made protocols, you can't make a relationship work for life.

Kulbir Singh

lagda kissay nu "peyaar" hogeya =P

Kulbir Singh Bhaji has hit the nail on the head - love conquers all - where there is love nothing matters - Husband will never look down at his wife and the same goes for the wife - because there is bliss in the house.

In Gods eyes everyone is equal - as long as your are honest with yourselves.