Shabad meaning

Can someone please explain this Mengha shabad especially the first line.

slok vwrW qy vDIk ]

Shaloks In Addition To The Vaars.

mhlw 1 ]

First Mehl:

auqMgI pYEhrI gihrI gMBIrI ]

O you with swollen breasts, let your consciousness become deep and profound.

ssuiV suhIAw ikv krI invxu n jwie QxI ]

O mother-in-law, how can I bow? Because of my stiff nipples, I cannot bow.

gcu ij lgw igVvVI sKIey DaulhrI ]

O sister, those mansions built as high as mountains

sy BI Fhdy ifTu mY muMD n grbu QxI ]1]

- I have seen them come crumbling down. O bride, do not be so proud of your nipples. ||1||

suix muMDy hrxwKIey gUVw vYxu Apwru ]

O bride with deer-like eyes, listen to the words of deep and infinite wisdom.

pihlw vsqu is\wix kY qW kIcY vwpwru ]

First, examine the merchandise, and then, make the deal.

dohI idcY durjnw imqRW kUM jYkwru ]

Proclaim that you will not associate with evil people; celebrate victory with your friends.

ijqu dohI sjx imlin lhu muMDy vIcwru ]

This proclamation, to meet with your friends, O bride - give it some thought.

qnu mnu dIjY sjxw AYsw hsxu swru ]

Surrender mind and body to the Lord your Friend; this is the most excellent pleasure.

iqs sau nyhu n kIceI ij idsY clxhwru ]

Do not fall in love with one who is destined to leave.

nwnk ijn@I iev kir buiJAw iqn@w ivthu kurbwxu ]2]

O Nanak, I am a sacrifice to those who understand this. ||2||

jy qUM qwrU pwix qwhU puCu iqVMn@ kl ]

Bhai Kulbir Singh please resond

ਉਤੰਗੀ, ਪੈ ਓਹਰੀ, ਗਹਿਰੀ ਗੰਭੀਰੀ ॥
ਸਸੁੜਿ ਸੁਹੀਆ ਕਿਵ ਕਰੀ, ਨਿਵਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ਥਣੀ ॥
ਗਚੁ ਜਿ ਲਗਾ ਗਿੜਵੜੀ ਸਖੀਏ ਧਉਲਹਰੀ ॥
ਸੇ ਭੀ ਢਹਦੇ ਡਿਠੁ ਮੈ, ਮੁੰਧ ਨ ਗਰਬੁ ਥਣੀ ॥੧॥


Background: This Salok appears on Ang 1410, Salok Vaara tau Vadheek. This first Salok of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee is very deep and complex to understand. Using a worldly metaphor, Guru Sahib is giving us an important spiritual lesson of staying humble and not be proud of our possessions.

It is quite possible, that this conversation really took place between two young ladies and Guru Sahib heard their conversation and decided to give Gursikhs an important lesson of spirituality. Many Sampradayak scholars maintain that this conversation actually took place between Rani Sunatha and her mother-in-law but from the second Pankiti in which ਸਸੁੜਿ (mother-in-law) appears as third person, it seems like this conversation actually took place between two young married Sakhees (female friends):

Literal Meanings:

Sakhi 1: (Pankiti 1) O the one with raised breasts and the one very proud (of your looks), bow at her feet.

Sakhi 2: (Pankiti 2) How can I bow before my mother-in-law? I can't bow before her because of my breasts.

Sakhi 1: (Pankiti 3 and 4) O Sakhi, I have seen big cemented mountain-like mansions falling; don't be proud of your breasts.


Deeper Analysis:

In order to understand this Salok, we need to understand the terminology used in this Shabad. Why did Sakhi (female friend) 1 refer to the Sakhi 2 as the one with raised breasts? The reason is clear that Sakhi 2 must have been proud of her beauty and reference to her breasts symbolically means that Sakhi 2 is also proud of her sexuality. There could be two reasons for her being proud of her breasts - first, this lady has her husband under her control by using Kaam and the second reason could be that she has given birth to a son and is proud of this. Then she would be proud of her breasts because of the milk in them. In olden days, when a woman used to go to her in-laws home after marriage, she used to get respect for her looks, work she knows and also for dowry but once she would give birth to a son, her status used to rise immediately, thereby making her proud. Whatever the reason for her pride, the matter of the fact is that she has her husband under control and therefore she does not feel the need to bow before her mother-in-law i.e. she is challenging the authority of her mother-in-law.

Sensing her pride, her Sakhi (Sakhi 1) gives her advice that it's not wise to be proud of superficial things (instead of virtues) because these superficial things like youth and the beauty associated with youth is only temporary. If huge mountain-like mansions can fall, then what's the status of youthful beauty?

The Gurmat lesson from this worldly conversation between the two female friends is that a Gursikh should not be proud of his worldly possessions like a good body, youth, status, money, house etc. because none of these possessions are going to stay forever. There are many who don't bow before Guru Sahib and don't adopt the Gurmat way of life because they are so intoxicated in the possessions and pleasures of Maya. They should realize that these pleasures and worldly pleasures are going to go away one day.


Meanings Differences:

There are differences between different scholars about the meanings of the first Pankiti. Here are different Pad-chheds of this Pankiti:

First Pad-chhed:

ਉਤੰਗੀ, ਪੈ ਓਹਰੀ, ਗਹਿਰੀ ਗੰਭੀਰੀ ॥

ਉਤੰਗੀ = One with raised organs (breasts), ਪੈ (feet); ਓਹਰੀ = fall; ਗਹਿਰੀ ਗੰਭੀਰੀ = considering oneself to be very wise.

O one with raised breasts (ਉਤੰਗੀ), and one proud of her intelligence (ਗਹਿਰੀ ਗੰਭੀਰੀ ) fall (ਓਹਰੀ) at her feet (ਪੈ).


Second Pad-chhed

ਉਤੰਗੀ ਪੈਓਹਰੀ, ਗਹਿ ਰੀ ਗੰਭੀਰੀ ॥

ਉਤੰਗੀ = tall; ਪੈਓਹਰੀ = breasts; ਗਹਿ = take hold of; ਗੰਭੀਰੀ = intelligence or wisdom.

As you can see above, here the word ਪੈ and ਓਹਰੀ has been combined to get the meaning of breasts. The meanings are, O one with raised breasts, take hold of deep intelligence.

Third Pad-chhed

ਉਤੰਗੀ ਪੈਓਹਰੀ ਗਹਿਰੀ ਗੰਭੀਰੀ ॥

ਉਤੰਗੀ = tall; ਪੈਓਹਰੀ = breasts; ਗਹਿਰੀ = deep; ਗੰਭੀਰੀ = intelligence or wisdom.

Here the meanings are, one with raised breasts and deep intelligence (thinks she has deep wisdom but actually does not), tells her Sakhi that she can't bow before her mother-in-law because of her breasts.

The Pad-chhed 1 above has been done by Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee and Faridkoti translator Giani Bachan Singh. The Pad-chhed 2 has been done by Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha and the third Pad-chhed has been done by Professor Sahib Singh jee. Gurbani Viyakaran, as far as I know, cannot be used in the above examples to refute the meanings i.e. all these are within Gurbani Viyakaran parameters.

I just want to mention that we don't favour multiple meanings of Gurbani Pankitis and the above different Pad-chheds have been listed just for the benefit of the readers. Daas' personal opinion has been written in the beginning.

Gurbani is Agam Agaadh Bodh.

Kulbir Singh

Beautifully expplained Veerji. Guru Sahib really nicely explained to us with a worldly example that in how many ways/forms the Haume Rog(MAIN/ MERA) can attack us. A gursikh definitely needs to be of the kind SAKHI 1 who could clearly think that all the possessions in this world are false and have to be left one day. The good body,wealth,a nice house should only be considered as temporary and which should be used to the maximum to do Bhagti,Simran.

ਹੇ ਜਨਮ ਮਰਣ ਮੂਲੰ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੰ ਪਾਪਾਤਮਾ ॥
ਮਿਤ੍ਰੰ ਤਜੰਤਿ ਸਤ੍ਰੰ ਦ੍ਰਿੜੰਤਿ ਅਨਿਕ ਮਾਯਾ ਬਿਸ੍ਤੀਰਨਹ ॥
ਆਵੰਤ ਜਾਵੰਤ ਥਕੰਤ ਜੀਆ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਬਹੁ ਭੋਗਣਹ ॥
ਭ੍ਰਮ ਭਯਾਨ ਉਦਿਆਨ ਰਮਣੰ ਮਹਾ ਬਿਕਟ ਅਸਾਧ ਰੋਗਣਹ ॥
ਬੈਦ੍ਯ੍ਯੰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸ੍ਵਰ ਆਰਾਧਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰੇ ॥੪੯॥

Vaheguru jee ka Khalsa Vaheguru jee kee fateh!

Another prespective:

This GurSbdo focuses on "Mn Mae Simran Karae" Method

ਉਤੰਗੀਪੈਓਹਰੀਗਹਿਰੀਗੰਭੀਰੀ ॥


ਰੀ – “Ree” -This is external consciousness, it is like a
ਉਤੰਗੀ = Oh Tan Tae Paaee/ਉਹ + ਤੰ+ਗੀ (tightly tied cover over Tn (subtle body))/ a tight cover on subtle body-
ਪੈਓਹਰੀ = ਪੈ = (Pahe) Paa Kae ਓਹਰੀ = Dhakee Hoe/Oharee hoee/wrapped around it
ਗਹਿ +ਰੀ = thickly
ਗੰਭੀ+ਰੀ = Countable Centre ਗੰ +nਭੀ = with a center

ਸਸੁੜਿਸੁਹੀਆਕਿਵਕਰੀਨਿਵਣੁਨਜਾਇਥਣੀ ॥
Because of the decorative/good looking/colorful (ਸੁਹੀਆ) but tight robe (ਸੁੜਿ) around the subtle conscious mind – this type makes (ਇਥਣੀ) it difficult how (ਕਿਵਕਰੀ) to bend, to bow down, to be humble (ਨਿਵਣੁ), to be polite
ਗਚੁਜਿਲਗਾਗਿੜਵੜੀਸਖੀਏਧਉਲਹਰੀ ॥
Its movement –ਗਿੜਵੜੀ from centre to throat (ਗਚੁ)
Since (ਜਿ) it is attached (ਲਗਾ) a throat (ਗਚੁ) it moves (ਧਉ) as a wave (ਲਹਰੀ) and keeps moving (ਗਿੜਵੜੀ) coming going upto throat. Thus there is a movement –ਗਿੜਵੜੀ from centre (ਨਿਭੀ) to throat (ਗਚੁ)

ਸੇ ਭੀਢ ਹਦੇ ਡਿਠੁਮੈ ਮੁੰਧਨ ਗਰਬੁ ਥਣੀ ॥੧॥
Nanak saw those who closed (ਭੀਢ) their limit (ਹਦੇ) , (the limit of coming to throat (ਸੇਭੀਢਹਦੇਡਿਠੁਮੈ) and ਮੁੰਧਨ (churn, repeat the process, coming up and going down) this process (of coming up and going down – between thorat (ਗਚੁ)
- Naval point) this way (ਥਣੀ) at the Centre point (ਗਰਬੁ) from where the external consciousness (Re -ਰੀ) takes birth.

Central theme seems to guide on how to internalizing NaMo Simran


Humbly

Charan Singh jeeo, the meanings you have done are totally (I mean totally) contrary to Gurbani Viyakaran as well as Bhasha-Gyaan (linguistics). Such words as ਭੀਢ, ਡਿਠੁਮੈ, ਮੁੰਧਨ, ਸੁੜਿ, ਇਥਣੀ etc. are not part of Gurbani language and nor they are part of everyday language spoken today or 500 years ago; and the meanings of these words that you have given make no sense at all.

You claim that this Salok tells us how to do Simran within the mind. Could you please tell us in simple terms and language how to do Simran in mind?

Bhul chuk dee Muafi jee.

Kulbir Singh

Goroo Piaarae jio

With sincere aplogy, shared this perspective to better evolve with Sangat's participation. In simple word, Simran to this one means - speaking using throat//vocal functionaries: Waheguroo Waheguroo , Waheguroo Waheguroo most lovingly, faithfully, surrendering to the ONE !! The Only One . Gurkirpa, practicing this - Simran Starts and seeking one gets connected , remains in Simran's company/ Sadh/Sat sangat. This Sangat/ company doesnt need vocal functionalities and is auto-set mode in and around navel. It seemed to me GurSbdo under reflections is unfolding that same path when the voice manifests as a language but its base is in Navel. This seems a verfiable concept as when one closely watches how one talks navel comes as an important functionary in langauge/ voice production. Again, sharing to better evolve only jio. Once Sangat considers this as a close to right perspective on Simran, we can share more on Language. dimensions.

humbly

Veer Kulbir Singh Jio - Just talking a follow up to our conversation. You would agree that this life is a precious opportunity to connect. In larger interest of recommended Gurmat sharing - could you please guide and reflect on my approach "please tell us in simple terms and language how to do Simran in mind?" that might be have been placed tangential;if you think something is not publically sharable kindly send me a private message so that I dont lose this precious opportunity. I have tried to reiterate my perspective yesterday as a poem published here as well. Hope you would find time to share and guide with your perspective as well. Your language related questions have Gurmat based answers, but I am more interested not to lose the precious opportunity to connect with SatGur Jio - the primary reason of my joining the sangat.

Humbly

Charan Singh jeeo, you have given your perspective on Simran in mind and I have nothing more to say.

With respect to the interpretation of the Shabad that you have done, the meanings are creative and not in accordance to Gurbani Viyakaran or Bhasha Gyaan. All scholars whether Sampradayak or new ones, have done the meanings similar to the ones done by this Daas. The Salok clearly is a conversation between two Sakhees and the central idea is that one should not be proud of one's possessions because all worldly possessions are temporary.

Kulbir Singh

Charan Singh - that's a very good post. This is how naam becomes self generating. The current raises up from nabhi. The post is perfectly in accordance with Sikhism. The navel is where the subtle force is stored - the creative side of our essence (in a male veeraj). By tapping this essence with shabad we raise it and transmute that force. Having love in the heart with repetition pulls this upwards. With lots of abhiyaas the mind moves towards silence. Eventually the shbad becomes self-generating lifting one's surat higher. The Satguru's help in this process is pivotal. It is the play of many lifetimes.

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The navel is where the subtle force is stored - the creative side of our essence (in a male veeraj).

Please provide some Gurbani Pankiti to backup the claim that the subtle force is stored in male Veeraj. Also what would happen to women? They have no subtle force?

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By tapping this essence with shabad we raise it and transmute that force. Having love in the heart with repetition pulls this upwards. With lots of abhiyaas the mind moves towards silence.

Please explain what you mean by 'mind moves towards silence".

Kulbir Singh

Also in reference to what happens to women and subtle force - please ask a woman who has experienced ajapa japa to tell you. I am not a woman so will not comment on how their bodies work. I only know what takes place in mine

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Also in reference to what happens to women and subtle force - please ask a woman who has experienced ajapa japa to tell you. I am not a woman so will not comment on how their bodies work. I only know what takes place in mine

This is the first time I am hearing that the mystical experiences of women are different from men because they don't have Veeraj like men do. Please stop misleading the Sangat by posting such anti-Gurmat, Jog-matt teachings.

Ajappa Jaap is Ajappa Jaap, irrespective of whether it is a man or a woman. Ajappa Jaap means continuous non-stop Naam Jaap that begins with Guru Sahib's Kirpa and this Jaap is same for men and women. Presence of Veeraj has nothing to do with it.

Kulbir Singh

Who said they are different? That's the context you chose to view my post in because your nature is to attack others.

Calling discourse about ajapa japa anti Gursikh is strange in my view. You cannot stop what happens in the body. Each syllable of the guru-mantra resonates. When it resonates it has an effect. That effect is what it is. Surat rides on the transmutaion of that force. If you have not experienced it don't write about it - a real Khalsa or even an aspiring one would not offer up such folly as truth.

Many thanks for the kind words rsg11 jio, however it seems we are on different page. Silence is not a GurSikh would seek. Gurkirpa GurDarsn. Gur AngSang seems the ultimate objectives that one seeks from the Goroo. The most desirable for one in love with Guru may be following:

ਨਿਕਟਿ ਆਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਸੇਜ ਧਰੀ ॥
Nikatt Aan Pria Saej Dhharee ||
ਕਾਣਿ ਕਢਨ ਤੇ ਛੂਟਿ ਪਰੀ ॥੨॥
Kaan Kadtan Thae Shhoott Paree ||2||

ਕਰਉ ਬਰਾਬਰਿ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੀ ਇਹ ਹਉਮੈ ਕੀ ਢੀਠਾਈ ॥੧॥
Karo Baraabar Jo Pria Sang Raathanaee Eih Houmai Kee Dteethaaee ||1||

Certain other aspects shared seems to have no Gurmat endorsements too or possibly I have not explored, researched Gurbani at those depths and Gurkirpa not experienced those yet.

Thank you Kulbir Singh Jio for clarifying. Though I would submit that Gurbani is experiential too Gurbani opens with Gurbani to give clues to inward journey that validates experience.

Humbly

rsg11 jeeo,

It would be great if you could answer the questions asked previously. I repeat them again below:

Please provide some Gurbani Pankiti to backup the claim that the subtle force is stored in male Veeraj. Also what would happen to women? They have no subtle force?

Kulbir Singh

Respected Kulbir Singh, it's better for you to fcous on naam abhiyas - the answers will become clear themselves if one is ernest. Your posts here show a lack of experience of how naam vibrates. Its an effect - not the goal. However, experiencing it is not against Sikhism, it is merely a flag of the starting rungs of naam abhiyas and how that seed starts to flourish. That's what Gurbani leads us to - as I said earelier, all else is prattle and pride.


Humbly
RSG

Respected Charan Singh. My point is, one should not underestimate the power of Naam. It will lead one where it will. It goes back to source, the progress can be slow or fast depending upon past lifetimes. There are indicators of progress on the way. What is beyond current comprehension should not be slandered as yogic or even demonic - it will stagnate the rise of surat and give strength to intellect which increases "haumai". Real abhiyas is what gurbani eludes to. "Simmer simmer sudah sukh pavoh" is enough for me. Others may need more before they embark on the journey. Let us not be caught on the wayside arguing intellect - our respected founders wanted more for us, a LOT more.

Satnaam, Vaheguru

Guru Piaarae Jio - I concur with rsg11 jio, that there are milestones, indicators of progress- and Gurbani well measures and validate these during one's journey. Further these should not be labelled ( because : ਅਤਿਊਚਾਤਾਕਾਦਰਬਾਰਾ ॥). Gurbani along with Viakaran /Grammar seems an ocean for Research and severla other explorable directions. For sure - Sikhi is INSEPRABLE from research. One likely uses body as a laboratory to perform experiments and researches what Gurbani guides. The BLISSFUL experience, under discussion, inside the body seems that of NaMo NiSaNn and following GurSbdo likely guides towards that.

ਮੈਨਿਰਖਤਨਿਰਖਤਸਰੀਰੁਸਭੁਖੋਜਿਆਇਕੁਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਚਲਤੁਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥
ਬਾਹਰੁਖੋਜਿਮੁਏਸਭਿਸਾਕਤਹਰਿਗੁਰਮਤੀਘਰਿਪਾਇਆ ॥੩॥

Not sure, and I agree with Veer Kulbir Singh Jio, as he has requested again to rsg11 jio who should provide Gurbani reference on "subtle force is stored in male Veeraj". GuRKiRPa - NaMo NiSaNn is experiencable in the entire body, in each cell of the body and, at macro level, in the entires cosmos. A Gursikh seeks NaMo only that one accomplishes Gurkirpa, Gurmuikh.


Complete GuR SBDo is given for Sanagt's reference jio.

ਬਸੰਤੁ ਹਿੰਡੋਲੁ ਘਰੁ ੨ ਮਹਲਾ ੪
ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ਕਾਂਇਆ ਨਗਰਿ ਇਕੁ ਬਾਲਕੁ ਵਸਿਆ ਖਿਨੁ ਪਲੁ ਥਿਰੁ ਨ ਰਹਾਈ ॥
ਅਨਿਕ ਉਪਾਵ ਜਤਨ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਕੇ ਬਾਰੰ ਬਾਰ ਭਰਮਾਈ ॥੧॥
ਮੇਰੇ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਬਾਲਕੁ ਇਕਤੁ ਘਰਿ ਆਣੁ ॥
ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਤ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਈਐ ਭਜੁ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
ਇਹੁ ਮਿਰਤਕੁ ਮੜਾ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਹੈ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਜਿਤੁ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਹੀ ਵਸਿਆ ॥
ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਗੁਰਿ ਉਦਕੁ ਚੁਆਇਆ ਫਿਰਿ ਹਰਿਆ ਹੋਆ ਰਸਿਆ ॥੨॥
ਮੈਨਿਰਖਤਨਿਰਖਤਸਰੀਰੁਸਭੁਖੋਜਿਆਇਕੁਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਚਲਤੁਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥
ਬਾਹਰੁਖੋਜਿਮੁਏਸਭਿਸਾਕਤਹਰਿਗੁਰਮਤੀਘਰਿਪਾਇਆ ॥੩॥
ਦੀਨਾ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਜਿਉ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਬਿਦਰ ਘਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥
ਮਿਲਿਓ ਸੁਦਾਮਾ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਧਾਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਗੈ ਦਾਲਦੁ ਭੰਜਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੪॥
ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਕੀ ਪੈਜ ਵਡੇਰੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਠਾਕੁਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਰਖਾਈ ॥
ਜੇ ਸਭਿ ਸਾਕਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਬਖੀਲੀ ਇਕ ਰਤੀ ਤਿਲੁ ਨ ਘਟਾਈ ॥੫॥
ਜਨ ਕੀ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਹੈ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮਾ ਦਹ ਦਿਸਿ ਸੋਭਾ ਪਾਈ ॥
ਨਿੰਦਕੁ ਸਾਕਤੁ ਖਵਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਤਿਲੁ ਅਪਣੈ ਘਰਿ ਲੂਕੀ ਲਾਈ ॥੬॥
ਜਨ ਕਉ ਜਨੁ ਮਿਲਿ ਸੋਭਾ ਪਾਵੈ ਗੁਣ ਮਹਿ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਾ ॥
ਮੇਰੇ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕੇ ਜਨ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਜੋ ਹੋਵਹਿ ਦਾਸਨਿ ਦਾਸਾ ॥੭॥
ਆਪੇ ਜਲੁ ਅਪਰੰਪਰੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ॥
ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਹਜਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ਜਿਉ ਜਲੁ ਜਲਹਿ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੮॥੧॥੯॥


Humbly

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Respected Kulbir Singh, it's better for you to fcous on naam abhiyas - the answers will become clear themselves if one is ernest. Your posts here show a lack of experience of how naam vibrates. Its an effect - not the goal. However, experiencing it is not against Sikhism, it is merely a flag of the starting rungs of naam abhiyas and how that seed starts to flourish. That's what Gurbani leads us to - as I said earelier, all else is prattle and pride.

Naam-Abhyaasi rsg11 jee, thanks for the second reminder that I need to focus on Naam Abhyaas. I will try more now. But I again request you to answer the questions asked to you in the previous posts; why are you avoiding these questions? If you don't have the capability to backup your claims then don't post such statements. I repeat the questions again:

Please provide some Gurbani Pankiti to backup the claim that the subtle force is stored in male Veeraj. Also what would happen to women? They have no subtle force?

You had written that this subtle force is stored in male Veeraj. This is not about experiencing Naam. You are writing this as a pre-requisite. This statement of male Veeraj of some subtle force sitting in the navel or the need to rise this subtle force through the Chakras of the body are all Jog-Matt or Brahmanvaad stuff. Gurmukhs don't try to pierce the Chakras and they don't try to awaken any force (like Jogis who try to raise the Sukhmana naadi in the bottom of the backbone). All the stuff that is required to happen, happens automatically with Naam Abhyaas. Gurmukhs Japp Naam according to Gurmat and in the love of Vaheguru jee. Rest they don't need to worry about Chakras and subtle forces.

I again ask you, what happens to women who don't have the male Veeraj? Does it mean that they don't get to experience the Avastha that you claim to experience? This too is not in accordance to Gurmat. In Gurmat, men and women have same access to mystical experiences.

Naam-Abhyaas rsg11 jee, it would be great if you stop preaching to do Naam Abhyaas, and answer the questions, or retract your earlier statement. There are no qualms over Naam Abhyaas. We all agree that Naam Abhyaas is a must.

Kulbir Singh

Everything becomes clear with ernest japa. If something is confusing or seems out of touch,don't ponder on it. Focus solely on gur-mantra and let it be the guide rather than the infinite ramblings of intellect. What happens after that is down to grace.

Naam-Abhyaasi rsg11 jeeo, you again avoided clarifying your anti-Gurmat statements. Looks like you don't have answer to those erroneous statements. So do you take back your statement that the subtle force is stored in the male Veeraj? Do you realize that this statement of yours is anti-Gurmat because it leaves out Sikh Bibiyaan from experiencing mystical experiences?

Kulbir Singh

You have already shown you don't even know what happens in the male body, how will you comprehend what happens in the female body. Practical abhiyas would have shown you how gur-mantar progresses - there's your answer. Take it or leave it.

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You have already shown you don't even know what happens in the male body, how will you comprehend what happens in the female body. Practical abhiyas would have shown you how gur-mantar progresses - there's your answer. Take it or leave it.

This is getting very funny.

You are again making an Anti-Gurmat statement. In Gurmat, there is no difference in mystical experiences between men and women. Vaheguru appears to both men and women the same way. For Vaheguru, all are females. The gender of the body does not matter.

No Sikh Mahapurakh has written or mentioned about the difference of mystical experience in male and female bodies. We don't care what Brahmans and others say. Show us at least one Gurbani Pankiti that supports your wrong stand. If not Gurbani Pankiti, show us a statement from a bonafide Sikh Mahapurakh e.g. Bhai Gurdaas jee, Bhai Nandlal jee, Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee, Sant Attar Singh jee, Sant Gurbachan Singh jee.

If you can't provide any backup, then we are going to assume that your statement of the subtle force stored in the Veeraj is just your Manmatt.

Kulbir Singh

You took my comment to mean that nothing happens in females. I did not write about females as by human gender my body is male and I only speak of what i have experienced. Can you say the same?

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You took my comment to mean that nothing happens in females. I did not write about females as by human gender my body is male and I only speak of what i have experienced. Can you say the same?

Naam-Abhyaasi rsg11 jeeo, but why did you assume in the first place that females would have any different mystical experiences than you? And then to make such statement as the subtle force being stored in the male Veeraj, is actually insulting to Vaheguru. Yes Vaheguru is in everything but to say that he is particularly stored in the Veeraj is a totally nonsense statement. Then the question arised as to what would happen to the females who don't have Veeraj. So I had to take up your post, so as to avoid misunderstanding and avoid turning off our sisters and daughters who read this site regularly.

I respect your zeal for Naam Abhyaas and this site exists to promote Gurmat Naam Abhyaas but we must avoid Aanmatt influence on Gurmat Naam Abhyaas. Some are involved in interpreting Gurmat through the lens of Advaita Vedant and others are interpreting it through Yog-Matt. Gurmat is unique of all.

Kulbir Singh

Wahooo !!! Jio
Thats a big gap between walk and talk - Knowing Truth and Practicing Truth. If one is unable to validate, support one's statement with Gurbani - one should be courageous 1) to take it back. 2) research more to explore one's evolving perspective - 3) there should be no room for getting into personal attack that leaves admin with a no choice but to cut. It seems heathy discussion is all GurVichar is all about. Humbly

Same benti Admin jee, can we pls consider closing this topic now, as no answer is given to any of the questions asked by Kulbir Singh, many times!

This forum's uniqueness is build on the quality and seriousness of the answers, which really help learners like me to understand Guru di Mat. New learners are the real losers in this kind of debate were cleraly anti Gurmat statements are posted !!

ਮੈਨਿਰਖਤਨਿਰਖਤਸਰੀਰੁਸਭੁਖੋਜਿਆਇਕੁਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਚਲਤੁਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥
Should I get gurmat reflections from sangat on evolving perspective as stated above on November 27, 2012 05:49AM post?

Humbly