Is there a doubt about the existence of Khasam Vaheguru?

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਅਖਰ ਦੁਇ ਭਾਖਿ ॥ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਖਸਮੁ ਤ ਲੇਇਗਾ ਰਾਖਿ ॥੩॥੩੩॥

Since a long time, I have thought of this Pankiti and kept thinking about the implications of it. The most common meaning that is derived of this Pankiti is that "O Kabir, utter the two alphabets i.e. Naam. If Khasam (the Lord) exists, he will keep you (i.e. your honour).

The problem with these meanings is that in the second Pankiti there is a condition that if the Khasam exists, he will keep you. This condition contains traces of doubt about the existence of Vaheguru. How can a Bhagat have any doubts over the existence of Vaheguru. Of course He exists. Then how can Gurbani imply that he may not exist?

Many Teekakaars (translators) have struggled with its meanings but nothing satisfied me. This is what Prof. Sahib Singh has to say about this Pankiti:

ਹੋਇਗਾ ਖਸਮੁ = ਜੇ ਮਾਲਕ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ, ਜੇ ਖਸਮ ਨੂੰ ਮਨਜ਼ੂਰ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ। ਲੇਇਗਾ ਰਾਖਿ = ਬਚਾ ਲਏਗਾ ॥੩॥੩੩॥
ਕਿ ਜੇ ਖ਼ਸਮ ਨੂੰ ਮਨਜ਼ੂਰ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ ਤਾਂ (ਜਿਥੇ ਕਿਤੇ ਲੋੜ ਪਏਗੀ, ਆਪ ਹੀ) ਬਚਾ ਲਏਗਾ ॥੩॥੩੩॥

Here's what Giani Bachan Singh of Faridkoti has translated this Pankiti:

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਕਹਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਦੋ ਅਖਰ ਜੋ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਹੈਂ ਤਿਸ ਕੋ ਉਚਾਰਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਜੋ ਕੋਈ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਖਸਮ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ ਸੋ ਰਾਖ ਲੇਵੇਗਾ ਇਤਨੇ ਮੈਂ ਅਗਨੀ ਸਾਂਤ ਹੋ ਗਈ॥੩॥੩੩॥

This is how I understood this Pankiti after many years of pondering:

ਹੇ ਕਬੀਰ ਤੂੰ ਨਾਮ ਰੂਪੀ ਦੋ ਅਖਰ ਬੋਲ (ਭਾਖ)। ਜੇ ਖਸਮ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ (ਤੇਰੀ ਰਸਨਾ ਤੇ) ਤਾਂ ਯਕੀਨਨ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਰੱਖ ਲਵੇਗਾ। In other words, O Kabir, you speak or utter the Naam roopi two letters. If Khasam is there (on your tongue through which you speak), then he will keep you (your honour, will protect you).

The verb ਹੋਇਗਾ is not for existence of Khasam but for Khasam to be on your tongue because in the first Pankiti, the Hukam is to utter his Naam. It is Gurmat Sidhaant (principle) that so long as the Bhagat has Naam on his tongue and mind, nothing can harm him. Bhagat Prahlaad jee demostrated this truth several times in his 5th year of age.

Recently, I came across, the most unique and different meaning of this Pankiti and this came from none other than the magnificent Bhai Kahn Singh jee Nabha. He has interpreted this Pankiti as follows:

ਜੇ ਤੇਰਾ ਕੋਈ ਅਕਾਰਣ ਵੈਰੀ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ, ਤਾਂ ਰਾਮ ਰਖ੍ਯਾ ਕਰੇਗਾ।

The word Khasam in Farsi also means enemy. Bhai Nandlal jee has called Siri Guru Sahib jee "Khasam ra jaan kaah Guru Gobind Singh" which means that Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee is the puller of life of enemies. In this particular Pankiti, Bhai Nabha jee has interpreted the word Khasam as Dushman or enemy. He says that if you chant Naam, and have some enemy, then He will protect you i.e. Naam will protect you. The only problem with this meaning is that the doer of the verb ਲੇਇਗਾ is not explicit but implied.

Gurbani is Agam Agaadh Bodh.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

Vah jee vah!

Wonderful Vichaar!

Preetam Singh

I agree with you Kulbir Singh ji. But with a slight variation though.
I think what Kabir ji is saying is :

"O Kabir recite the Naam, and if you have taken on a Khasam(made Vaheguru as your master, and yourself become a slave of Him), He shall be protect you (from enemies or death or whatever)"

The difference is slight but important. If one recites Naam and one takes Onkar/Prabhu as one's Master or Khasam, one need not fear anything and one can rest assured that Khasam is there to protect him. One who has a Khasam need not fear anything. One who does not have a Khasam needs to fear. Therefore make Him (Onkar) as your Khasam and loose all fear. The verb 'Hoyega' refers to existence of this Master-slave relationship. He means to say:

'If you have a Khasam, your Khasam will protect you"
In other words, 'Recite the Naam and get your Khasam to protect you, then you don't have to fear anything'

I don't feel there is a doubt lurking in this line. Kabir sahib is just making a situational comment. If you have a Khasam, you don't have to fear. 'Hoeyga' is not about existence of Waheguru, but about whether you have made him your Khasam, whether you have given yourself up to Him.

Bhai Kulbir SIngh Jeeo,

Personally I think your interpretation is more accurate then BHai Kahn SInghs.

In the beginning of the pangti Bhagat Kabir Sahib Ji states
ਆਪੇ ਪਾਵਕੁ ਆਪੇ ਪਵਨਾ ॥ ਜਾਰੈ ਖਸਮੁ ਤ ਰਾਖੈ ਕਵਨਾ ॥੧॥
Khasam created the fire of maya and created the wind which spreads this fire. Sri Guru Ji is independent from his creation ( maya) but at the same time resides within his creation. How can a merficul father stay detached from his creation? No longer how much mistakes we make in the midst of Maya our merficul father will always be present.When someone is being burned by this fire then who will save them?
Who else but Khasam? The following pangti provides the answer.

ਰਾਮ ਜਪਤ ਤਨੁ ਜਰਿ ਕੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
As long as we accept his will by doing ceasless Naam Jaap then the hot wind of Maya will have no effect on us.

ਤਤੀ ਵਾਉ ਨ ਤਾ ਕਉ ਲਾਗੈ ॥
ਸਿਮਰਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਜਾਗੈ ॥
For this reason I dont think Khasam here can mean enemy because the remaining pauris makes less sense.

I have gone thru almost every quote in Gurbanee related to the word "Khasamu"

I find this word Khasamu in Gurbanee is always a referemce for Prabhu/Maalik and nowhere
as enemy..
And I find the views ginven by Mystical23 are more pertinent and appropriate for understanding
the true meanings of the message.


Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

Considering the given quote as

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਅਖਰ ਦੁਇ ਭਾਖਿ ॥ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਖਸਮੁ ਤ ਲੇਇਗਾ ਰਾਖਿ ॥੩॥੩੩॥

Here Kabir Sahib ji is clearly telling about two alhabets What are these TWO ALPHABETS ?
My understanding is that these Two Alphabets are " HARi HARi"

A probable interpretation of the next line of the Quote can be

One will be saved from any other than PRABHu being his KHASAMu(Husband) .

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

ਹੋਇਗਾ ਖਸਮੁ ਤ ਲੇਇਗਾ ਰਾਖਿ ॥੩॥੩੩॥

I think it could mean that... if (ਹੋਇਗਾ) he's a Khasam, then he will ਰਾਖਿ

But on the other hand, I think its meant to give Bhagats assurance that they will eventually be saved.

great write up and interpretation by Kulbir Singh Jee. I like your interpretation. The previous tukh is talking about japping the Naam of Vaheguru, then logically the second tukh is a reference to the first tukh where it says to do Jaap of Naam.

ਹੋਇਗਾ ਖਸਮੁ ਤ ਲੇਇਗਾ ਰਾਖਿ ॥੩॥੩੩॥

I think it could mean that... if (ਹੋਇਗਾ) he's a Khasam, then he will ਰਾਖਿ
Gursimran Singh ji ,You are right in yur interpretation but Who is He being refered. This reference is related to TWO ALPHABETS..
So one can also consider the whole meaning of the Quote as

For ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਅਖਰ ਦੁਇ ਭਾਖਿ..............O KABIR,One must utter TWO ALPHABETS (HARi.HARi)

For ਹੋਇਗਾ ਖਸਮੁ ਤ ਲੇਇਗਾ ਰਾਖਿ ॥੩॥੩੩॥.....If These TWO ALPHABETS were ones KHASAMU(Husband)
then one would be saved from any eventuality..


Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

Bhai prakash.s.bagga jee, I am not very good with grammar but there seems to be a slight problem with your latest interpretation.

You are saying that if the two letters are of the Khasam then one would be saved.
The second pankiti is ਹੋਇਗਾ ਖਸਮੁ ਤ ਲੇਇਗਾ ਰਾਖਿ ॥੩॥੩੩॥ (attention to the word HOYEGA, ਹੋਇਗਾ)

But in your case the second pankiti should have started with HOYENGE/HOVENGE ਖਸਮੁ ਤ ਲੇਇਗਾ ਰਾਖਿ (Sorry I couldn't find the Gurbani Unicode converter).

It doesn't make sense that two letters (plural) have been referred to as ਹੋਇਗਾ.
In short, it should have been something on the following lines:
If these two letters ARE of the Khasam then HE shall save you.

But with your interpretation and based on the pankiti, it is:
If these two letters IS of the Khasam then HE shall save you. (This meaning seems grammatically incorrect)

Please correct me if I am wrong with respect to this grammatical explanation.

ਹੋਇਗਾ ਖਸਮੁ ਤ ਲੇਇਗਾ ਰਾਖਿ ||
Maybe it means that once you accept Vaheguru jee as your Khasam (Husband Lord), He will save you? Sorry, that is just a flashing interpretation I had right after reading that pankti. Excuse any mistakes.

TEJASV Ji,

There is nothing wrong in referening the two ALPHABETS(HARi.HARi) for KHASAMu.This is grammatically
O.K.
You can see that the word KHASAMu is with a matra of AUKAD under letterM so this is NOUN word
and the TWO ALHABETS
as is also NOUN .

One can see that in Gurbanee these TWO ALPHABETS are very special for understanding the messages of Gurbanee
related to NAAMu in particular.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

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Bagga jee,

Are you saying that Har Har is the mantar that Gursikhs should do jaap of?

Preetam Singh

PREETAM SINGH Ji,
The correct word is not HAR.HAR. (HARi is with a matra of Siharee).

I am just presenting observations from Gurbanee.and
I just feel so.

One can verify that GuRu ji is saying so or not.

I feel one must accept what GuRu ji is saying.

Ultimately Baanee is of COMPLETE AND PERFECT GuRu.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.s.Bagga

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Okay so you are saying we should do jaap of HARi HARi ?

What is the vidhi of doing jaap of HARi HARi?

And is this the only mantar that we should jap, or are there others as well?

Preetam Singh

Bagga jee, your post of supporting the chanting of Hari Hari or other Kirtam Naams in Gurbani, is very misleading. Please review your thoughts. There is a difference between Satnaam and Kirtam Naam. This basic knowledge is possessed by even the children of Sikhs. There is only one Naam that all Sikhs chat. To support chanting of Hari Hari, or Raam Raam, or other Kirtam Naams is totally contrary to Gurmat.

Kulbir Singh

One should always be listening to Gurbanee and try to grasp the essence of the messages
This is the only way one can know what to do and How to do.
Only SatiGuRu may guide all of us to be on the path of meeting ABNAASEE PRABHu
Thru GURMATi RAAM NAAMu.
As I have understood the knowledge of GURMATi RAAM NAAMu is the only Gurmat from
Gurbanee.

VEER Kulbir Singh ji,I have taken the note of your message and try to know about your Gurmat..
I thank you very much for your keen and positive responses to many of my posts along with the
incidence of dream as a Joke which I did like.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

VEER KULBIR SINGH Ji,

I was inspired by the Board Message of this site as

This site has been started with the mission to follow Gurmat Bibek and inspire others to do so as well. This site is dedicated to acquainting the world with Gurmat Bibek as enshrined in Gurbani and Gurmat literature.
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I am surprised to understand from your views as to what is Anti Gurmat presented in my messages.

I dont think I have ever presented anything which is not there in Gurbanee as Such.

I believe in understanding Gurbanee from The REAL TEACHER which is GuRu in SGGS ji.

I listen and read to many others but my accepting criteria is Gurbanee only.

I find contributors here well conversant with the grammar of Gurbanee language and I think one should remain open
minded for the views from others. There is no compulsion for any one to accept but one should always be fair
for presentation of the views.
This is what we all can learn from the messages of Gurbane.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

Kulbir Veer ji
Sometimes it is more useful to refer to the entire shabad and try to get the Rahao pankti .It is stated that Rahao Pankti contains the major theme of the shabad. In this context I have posted below shabad From ang 327.
The major thrust in Rahao line is on Naam simran etc.,
If you carefully look at the plain translation [sometimes these also create problems but in this case it is resolving the same.] it is stated that ' If He is your Lord and Master, He will protect you' meaning thereby Kabir ji is not doubting the divine existence but he is doubting whether he has realized or not. It is only after out realization of the Divine/Absolute that we actually become soul brides and He becomes our Khasam. Till that stage is not reached we have to make all efforts to realize HIm in order to make Him as Khasam. It is in this context that the meaning of Pankti should be taken.

To me now there is no doubt. Secondly, based on inferential also,Veer ji, Had Kabeer ji doubted the existence of the Absolute his utterances would not have found place in Bani......

ਗਉੜੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ॥
गउड़ी कबीर जी ॥
Ga▫oṛī Kabīr jī.
Gauree, Kabeer Jee:

ਆਪੇ ਪਾਵਕੁ ਆਪੇ ਪਵਨਾ ॥
आपे पावकु आपे पवना ॥
Āpe pāvak āpe pavnā.
He Himself is the fire, and He Himself is the wind.

ਜਾਰੈ ਖਸਮੁ ਤ ਰਾਖੈ ਕਵਨਾ ॥੧॥
जारै खसमु त राखै कवना ॥१॥
Jārai kẖasam ṯa rākẖai kavnā. ||1||
When our Lord and Master wishes to burn someone, then who can save him? ||1||

ਰਾਮ ਜਪਤ ਤਨੁ ਜਰਿ ਕੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
राम जपत तनु जरि की न जाइ ॥
Rām japaṯ ṯan jar kī na jā▫e.
When I chant the Lord's Name, what does it matter if my body burns?

ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
राम नाम चितु रहिआ समाइ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Rām nām cẖiṯ rahi▫ā samā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
My consciousness remains absorbed in the Lord's Name. ||1||Pause||

ਕਾ ਕੋ ਜਰੈ ਕਾਹਿ ਹੋਇ ਹਾਨਿ ॥
का को जरै काहि होइ हानि ॥
Kā ko jarai kāhi ho▫e hān.
Who is burned, and who suffers loss?

ਨਟ ਵਟ ਖੇਲੈ ਸਾਰਿਗਪਾਨਿ ॥੨॥
नट वट खेलै सारिगपानि ॥२॥
Nat vat kẖelai sārigpān. ||2||
The Lord plays, like the juggler with his ball. ||2||

ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਅਖਰ ਦੁਇ ਭਾਖਿ ॥
कहु कबीर अखर दुइ भाखि ॥
Kaho Kabīr akẖar ḏu▫e bẖākẖ.
Says Kabeer, chant the two letters of the Lord's Name - Raa Maa.

ਹੋਇਗਾ ਖਸਮੁ ਤ ਲੇਇਗਾ ਰਾਖਿ ॥੩॥੩੩॥
होइगा खसमु त लेइगा राखि ॥३॥३३॥
Ho▫igā kẖasam ṯa le▫igā rākẖ. ||3||33||
If He is your Lord and Master, He will protect you. ||3||33||

One should give a thought to the following Quote from Gurbanee as

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਖਰ ਦੁਇ ਇਹ ਮਾਲਾ ॥ ਜਪਤ ਜਪਤ ਭਏ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲਾ ॥੧॥ ਕਰਉ ਬੇਨਤੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਪੁਨੀ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਦੇਹੁ ਹਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਨੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥.pp388 SGGS ji

The above quote makes us able to understand about ਅਖਰ ਦੁਇ ,Here two ALPHABETS refer to two similar words

and these two words are given to be known as .

Bhul chuk maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

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Mr. Bagga,

Gurmantar is made up of four akhars. Two of the letters ( words) are recited internally (non vocally) while the other two words are recited vocally ( out loud) with the tongue.

In the verses
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਅਖਰ ਦੁਇ ਇਹ ਮਾਲਾ ॥ ਜਪਤ ਜਪਤ ਭਏ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲਾ
and
ਕਹੁ ਕਬੀਰ ਅਖਰ ਦੁਇ ਭਾਖਿ ॥ ਹੋਇਗਾ ਖਸਮੁ ਤ ਲੇਇਗਾ ਰਾਖਿ ॥੩॥੩੩॥

ਅਖਰ ਦੁਇ is referring to part of the mantra which we recite vocally out loud with the tongue they do not refer to Raam Raam. , because only through Gurmat Naam can one be saved. There is no other naam which leads to eternal salvation.

Reference to ਦੁਇ Akhar, it does not mean that we should literally chant Naam of two alphabets. If this was true, then what would you make of this Pankiti:

ਏਕ ਅਖਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਬਸਤ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਤ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥1॥

Would you interpret that this Pankiti as chanting of Naam with one alphabet?

Where ever there is reference to Ek Akhar or Duye Akhar, it means Naam with few alphabets. The Naam of Guru ghar has 4 alphabets and a Gursikh of Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee's House chants only this Gurmat Naam. A Gursikh is supposed to chant that One Gurmat Naam that he or she gets at the time of Amrit Sinchaar.

Kulbir Singh

Gurmantar is made up of four akhars. Two of the letters ( words) are recited internally (non vocally) while the other two words are recited vocally ( out loud) with the tongue.


SUKHDEEP SINGH Ji,

Would you pl post any quote from Gurbanee for your above point"Gurmantar is made up of four Akhars"
and What are these four specific Akhars.?

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

The word AKHAR ਅਖਰੁ mentioned in the quote is very important to understand.
This word is onserved in Gurbanee for the ALPHABET as well as for single complete WORD.
There is another meaning of this word that is "IMPERISHABLE" as an Adjective.

one can see that in the quote ਏਕ ਅਖਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਮਨਿ ਬਸਤ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਤ ਨਿਹਾਲ ॥1॥
The word ਅਖਰੁ is SINGULAR and is refering to the word ਹਰਿ as ਏਕ ਅਖਰੁ
Therefore myunderstanding is that the reference meaning of the word
AKHARu/AKHAR in the quotes is for complete WORD/WORDS

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

Quote

SUKHDEEP SINGH Ji,

Would you pl post any quote from Gurbanee for your above point"Gurmantar is made up of four Akhars"
and What are these four specific Akhars.?

Mr. Baga,

Bhai Gurdas Ji who is the key theologian in SIkh scriptures mentions the four alphabets come together to form Gurmantar.
ਚਾਰੋ ਅਛਰ ( akhar) ਇਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜਪੁ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ।
bhai Gurdas Jis vaaran

Notice how BHai Sahib spells out the Gurmantar as He spells out the Gurmantar as ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ . So the four alphabets are
ਵਾ, ਹਿ, ਗੁ, ਰੂ.

In Sarab Loh Granth, Sri Guru Ji echoes BHai Sahib and states GUrmantar is made up of four alphabets spelling WaaheGuru.

Bhai Randhir SIngh Ji, Giani Gurbachan SIngh Ji and many other GUrmukhs also mention Gurmantar is made up of four alphabets.

Bhai Sukhdeep Singh Jee,

In your explanation you have mentioned the four alphabets. But you also say that two of the letters ( words) are recited internally (non vocally) while the other two words are recited vocally ( out loud) with the tongue.

Could you please mention which two are recited vocally and which are recited non-vocally. And is there any reason to do it the way you just mentioned?

SUKHDEEP SINGH Ji,

In your message you mention that . So the four alphabets are
ਵਾ, ਹਿ, ਗੁ, ਰੂ.

It is surprising to note that the mentioned ALPHBETS are with some proper matra
with the letter so can these be considered as Alphabets.

I think that Alphabets are always without any matra.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

Quote

Bhai Sukhdeep Singh Jee,

In your explanation you have mentioned the four alphabets. But you also say that two of the letters ( words) are recited internally (non vocally) while the other two words are recited vocally ( out loud) with the tongue.

Could you please mention which two are recited vocally and which are recited non-vocally. And is there any reason to do it the way you just mentioned?

Teja SIngh Jeeo,

Method of Gurmat Naam Abyiaas can only be taught by Sri Guru Ji via Panj Pyaarey. There are numerous GUrmat sources which briefly describe the method. If you are interested they are:
1. Gurmat Naam Abhyiaas Kamaee ( Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir SIngh JI)
2) Gurbani Darpan ( Giani Gurbachan SIngh JI)
3) Sikha Di Bhagat Maal ( Shaheed Bhai Mani SIngh)
4) Sau Sakhi
5) Prem Sumarg
6) Suraj Parkaash

There are some variations between the above sources but each source mentions how recitatoin of Gurmantar starts internally at Naabh ( navel) with the alphabet ਵਾ. If one trys to learn how to do Naam Abhyiaases from these sources they will only be doing Hath Yog not Gumat Yog abhyiaas. Only Panj Pyaarey can teach GUrmat Vidhi of Naam Abhyiaas. One cant learn this method from books or any individual. Personally I believe this type of discussion should not be discussed on a public forum. Sri GUru Ji is not pleased if we do GUrmat Naam Abhyiaas Kamaee openly in public or try to teach it to the public.
ਜੁਗਤਿ ਸਿਮਰਨੁ ਰਹਿਤ ਕਾ ਜ਼ਾਹਿਰ ਕਰਨਾ ਭਿਂਡ ਹੈ
Prem SUmarg Granth

Why can't the normal translations be correct? This seems like a figure of speech rather having doubts on existence of Vaheguru.
So literal translation would be "if there is Vaheguru then he will keep you" which actually means "as there is vaheguru he will keep you"
You see this sort of thing in everyday spoken language.

Just a thought