Proof that Mangals come First

vaahiguroojeekakhalsa vaahiguroojeekeefateh

Below is a picture from a Saroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee from 1653. It is from the start of Sohila Bani, as Kulbir Singh mentioned in his article on why Mangals come first, here: [www.gurmatbibek.com], it is clearly seen, that Mangal of ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ॥ was written first on the extreme right, and then the Sirlek of ਸੋਹਿਲਾ ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ ਦੀਪਕੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ was written afterwords. Because the writer ran out of room, so had to continue onto the second line to finish writing the sirlekh. All this is clear in this Picture. How much more proof do we need?! More Puratan Saroops with Mangals first can be seen here: [www.flickr.com]

Thanks for posting an excellent example of Mangals coming first. In this example, it is clear that the writer first wrote Mangal and then wrote the Sirlekh because if he had written the Sirlekh first, then he would not have been short on space and would have completed the whole Sirlekh in one line but we see that a part of the Sirlekh has been written in the next line. This proves that the Mangal was written first.

Kulbir Singh

Please have a look at the picture below, taken from Gagan Singh's photostream:



Notice that the Mangal till Gurprasaad is written on the right hand side and the Sirlekh which is "Jap" alone is written on the left hand side. From this we can deduce the following things:

1. Mangals, out of respect were written first and on the right hand side where as the Sirlekhs were written on the left side.
2. Old Paathis knew this Maryada and always used to say Mangals first.
3. Later Paathis, who did not know Maryada, started saying Mangals afterwards. The later ignorant writers got Sirlekhs and Mangals mixed up.
4. Another thing that is clear from this picture is that "Jap" is not part of Mool Mantra and is a Sirlekh. How else did this Baani get the name "Jap" jee Sahib? If we consider "Jap" to be part of the Mool Mantr, then what would be the name of this Baani?

Kulbir Singh

Thank you for this invaluable post Gagan Singh jee!

It is sad that even though there is so much proof that mangals come first, still some people will not accept the logic that mangals come first.

Guroo Sahib sumat bakhshan!

Preetam Singh

Some people just close their eyes even if you have enough evidence. There is a Raagi Singh who recently became Akhand Kirtania and now quite popular in western Jatha once argued with Daas for saying Mangals first in Rehraas, he even tried to scared Daas that Daas is still of young age and have to see the life yet so better to continue with what is commonly said for Mangals. He said he was the student Sant Kartar Singh Jee so he is giving me this suggestion to change my mind. Daas told him I respect Sant Kartar Singh Jee for their Nirmal and Panthic Jevan but that does not mean that you can use their name to scare Daas. I did not say this to him but kept in my heart because of his age and white Darra that you were mere student for few years of a great personality but with Guru's grace Daas is born and lived with Gursikhs Sants. Anyway we ended up using our own ways of saying Mangals but I learned from this short conversation that such people in Panth are trouble makers they used great personalities name to create controversies and gain the benefits out of it. Such people should be explored and isolated. I have heard from many Singhs that great Gurmukh Sants never imposed their views on others they explain what they believe in but never say my way is the only way but on the other hand these modern Sikhs think they are above than those Sants. Guru Sahib Kirpa Karan and may Gurmat prevail for all of us.

BTW, thanks Bhai Gagan Singh Jio for bringing up beautiful image. What an Anand comes seeing handwritten Saroops!

JASJIT SINGH Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some people just close their eyes even if you have
> enough evidence. There is a Raagi Singh who
> recently became Akhand Kirtania and now quite
> popular in western Jatha once argued with Daas for
> saying Mangals first in Rehraas, he even tried to
> scared Daas that Daas is still of young age and
> have to see the life yet so better to continue
> with what is commonly said for Mangals. He said he
> was the student Sant Kartar Singh Jee so he is
> giving me this suggestion to change my mind. Daas
> told him I respect Sant Kartar Singh Jee for their
> Nirmal and Panthic Jevan but that does not mean
> that you can use their name to scare Daas. I did
> not say this to him but kept in my heart because
> of his age and white Darra that you were mere
> student for few years of a great personality but
> with Guru's grace Daas is born and lived with
> Gursikhs Sants. Anyway we ended up using our own
> ways of saying Mangals but I learned from this
> short conversation that such people in Panth are
> trouble makers they used great personalities name
> to create controversies and gain the benefits out
> of it. Such people should be explored and
> isolated. I have heard from many Singhs that great
> Gurmukh Sants never imposed their views on others
> they explain what they believe in but never say my
> way is the only way but on the other hand these
> modern Sikhs think they are above than those
> Sants. Guru Sahib Kirpa Karan and may Gurmat
> prevail for all of us.

Jasjit Singh Jee, beautifully put, some Singhs have been bugging me as well. One line they use: " Oh you so you're saying Sant Jarnail Singh was wrong?" or "Why do you write so much about Sant Gurbachan Singh if you don't believe what he said?" These Singhs have no interest of the Panth or of Ekta, they just care about their own groups and Jathas, while the mahapurkhs like Sant Gurbachan Singh and Sant Jarnail Singh only cared about the Panth and not the Jatha they belonged to.

Notice the starting of Siri Sukhmani Sahib:

Saadh Sangat Jeeo,

I recently e-mailed PDL (Panjab Digital Library) about the oldest saroop of Guru Granth Sahib they have digitised.

The oldest saroops in their collection are from 1653 and 1676. They say that they will upload these saroops in their next update which they say will be this month. They say they have digitised around 700 manuscripts of Guru Granth Sahib ji.

I noticed on their website they said that they had digitised documents from bhai sahib bhai Joginder Singh ji Talwara, I asked them what they had digitised. They said that they have digitised 38 "registers" of Talwara ji. I asked them what they do they mean by "registers" they replied by saying that these registers - "contain his work on comparing four different old mansucripts of Guru Granth Sahib". I requested them to upload these documents in their May update of the website.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Gupt1 jee,

This is wonderful news! I have always wanted to look at Talwara jee's work in regards to the differences in saroops but have never been able to get my hand on them. I am eagerly awaiting this update!

Preetam Singh

That is good news. I myself have pictures of Saroops from 1644 and 1653. If you look on my Flickr, I've posted pictures from some of these saroops.

Here is one of Sri Sukhmani Sahib from a Saroop from 1653.



The Picture posted by me in the first post is from the same Saroop from 1653.


This picture is from 1644 of Sri Sukhmani Sahib

Kulbir Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 4. Another thing that is clear from this picture
> is that "Jap" is not part of Mool Mantra and is a
> Sirlekh. How else did this Baani get the name
> "Jap" jee Sahib? If we consider "Jap" to be part
> of the Mool Mantr, then what would be the name of
> this Baani?
>
> Kulbir Singh

---

Aim : To bring out the difference between Maha Mantar and Mool Mantar for Sikh Sangat.
Disclaimer : Daas has tried to do the Loose Translation in English so the words used by Daas may not bring out full essence of Gurmukhi.

Once Gyani Jee explained and Daas has understood following points.

1) Till ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ (Gurprasaad) it is Maha Mantar given by One and only One Akal Purakh Waheguru to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Jee (during Sri Sultanpur Sahib Bein/Beas River incident when Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to see Akal Purakh).

2) After 3 days Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji appeared (pragat) in Sant Ghat (on banks of Bein/Beas river or Madiyan vich) and recited (Uchaaran) Mool Mantar till ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ (Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach).

3) Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji explained, “Till ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ (Gurprasaad) the Maha Mantar was given (Bakshish) to me by Akal Purak Ji who is my Satguru”. Nirgun Swaroop is Father (Akal Purakh) and Sargun Swaroop is Son (Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji).

4) Akal Purakh gave Hukam to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji that “Duniya Vich Ja Ke Naam Japao fir Dukhi Duniya Sukhi Ho Javegi”.

5) Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji asked Akal Purakh “How the Swaroop of Akal Purakh till the “ ਸੈਭੰ “ will be attained (Prapti)” ? Akal Purakh replied that by “ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ (Gurprasaad)”, which comes after ਸੈਭੰ. This means that with Blessing of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji only the realisation of Akal Purakh will happen. Naam Daan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji di Bakshish de naal he milna hai.

6) Then Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji did “Ustat” till ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ (Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach). Then Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji put “Eeka” after ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ (Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach).

7) Conclusion : Till ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ (Gurprasaad) Akal Purakh gave it to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji and then till “ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ (Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach) with Eeka” was given by Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Sangat.

8) After ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ (Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach) with Eeka, One more EEKA comes at ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥ in Jap Ji Sahib. So Mool Mantar is till ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ (Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach) with first Eeka.

All this is known to Brahm Gyni person in 4th Awastha. All these truth is not known to person reached till 3 Awasthas namely Rajo Gun, Sato Gun and Tamo Gun (person whose Dib Dristhi is not open yet). Due to all this Agyan people are doing “Ched Kani With Bani and doing Ched Kani with Nirankaar”. Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar hai Te Jevad Avar Na Koi.

After returning from Akal Purakh Ji’s visit, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji told Bebe Nanki Ji that in front (Sanmukh) of Akal Purakh He had recited “Sodar”. The “Sodar” which Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji recited in front of Akal Purakh comes in “Rehraas Sahib”. The “Sodar” which Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji recited to Bebe Nanaki Ji comes in starting of “Aasa Raag”. The “Sodar” which Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji recited to Siddhas comes in “Jap Ji Sahib”. So in total 3 Sodar comes in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

The above points comes from house of Damdami Taksal where Brahm Giani Sant Baba Bishan Singh ji Muralewale had most of the Anubhavi Arth of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji from his Brahm Gyan and gave this vidya to Sant Baba Gyani Sundar Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindrawale. Sant Baba Gyani Sundar Singh Ji Khalsa Bhindrawale then documented the meaning and taught Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa the same. Sant Baba Kartar Singh Ki Khalsa did compliation and created "Sateek Arth wali Pothi" and passed on this gyan to Sant baba Jarnail Singh Ji during 1974-77 when he was student at Damdami Taksal.

DDM gave one serious advice that, "If you have still any doubt left then upgrade your Awastha and directly talk to Guru Jee Himself".

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

jaskirat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kulbir Singh Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > 4. Another thing that is clear from this
> picture
> > is that "Jap" is not part of Mool Mantra and is
> a
> > Sirlekh. How else did this Baani get the name
> > "Jap" jee Sahib? If we consider "Jap" to be
> part
> > of the Mool Mantr, then what would be the name
> of
> > this Baani?
> >
> > Kulbir Singh
>
>
> Aim : To bring out the difference between Maha
> Mantar and Mool Mantar for Sikh Sangat.
> Disclaimer : Daas has tried to do the Loose
> Translation in English so the words used by Daas
> may not bring out full essence of Gurmukhi.
>
> Once Gyani Jee explained and Daas has understood
> following points.
>
> 1) Till ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ
> (Gurprasaad) it is Maha Mantar given by One and
> only One Akal Purakh Waheguru to Sri Guru Nanak
> Dev Jee (during Sri Sultanpur Sahib Bein/Beas
> River incident when Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji went to
> see Akal Purakh).
>
> 2) After 3 days Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji appeared
> (pragat) in Sant Ghat (on banks of Bein/Beas river
> or Madiyan vich) and recited (Uchaaran) Mool
> Mantar till ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ
> ਸਚੁ (Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach).
>
> 3) Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji explained, “Till
> ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ (Gurprasaad) the
> Maha Mantar was given (Bakshish) to me by Akal
> Purak Ji who is my Satguru”. Nirgun Swaroop is
> Father (Akal Purakh) and Sargun Swaroop is Son
> (Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji).
>
> 4) Akal Purakh gave Hukam to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji
> that “Duniya Vich Ja Ke Naam Japao fir Dukhi
> Duniya Sukhi Ho Javegi”.
>
> 5) Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji asked Akal Purakh “How
> the Swaroop of Akal Purakh till the “
> ਸੈਭੰ “ will be attained (Prapti)” ?
> Akal Purakh replied that by “ਗੁਰ
> ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ (Gurprasaad)”, which comes
> after ਸੈਭੰ. This means that with Blessing
> of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji only the realisation of
> Akal Purakh will happen. Naam Daan Sri Guru Nanak
> Dev Ji di Bakshish de naal he milna hai.
>
> 6) Then Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji did “Ustat” till
> ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ (Nanak
> Hosi Bhi Sach). Then Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji put
> “Eeka” after ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ
> ਸਚੁ (Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach).
>
> 7) Conclusion : Till ਗੁਰ
> ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ (Gurprasaad) Akal Purakh
> gave it to Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji and then till
> “ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ
> (Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach) with Eeka” was given by
> Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji to Sangat.
>
> 8) After ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ
> ਸਚੁ (Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach) with Eeka, One
> more EEKA comes at ਹੁਕਮਿ ਰਜਾਈ
> ਚਲਣਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਲਿਖਿਆ
> ਨਾਲਿ ॥੧॥ in Jap Ji Sahib. So Mool
> Mantar is till ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ
> ਸਚੁ (Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach) with first Eeka.
>
> All this is known to Brahm Gyni person in 4th
> Awastha. All these truth is not known to person
> reached till 3 Awasthas namely Rajo Gun, Sato Gun
> and Tamo Gun (person whose Dib Dristhi is not open
> yet). Due to all this Agyan people are doing
> “Ched Kani With Bani and doing Ched Kani with
> Nirankaar”. Waho Waho Bani Nirankaar hai Te
> Jevad Avar Na Koi.
>
> After returning from Akal Purakh Ji’s visit, Sri
> Guru Nanak Dev Ji told Bebe Nanki Ji that in front
> (Sanmukh) of Akal Purakh He had recited
> “Sodar”. The “Sodar” which Sri Guru Nanak
> Dev Ji recited in front of Akal Purakh comes in
> “Rehraas Sahib”. The “Sodar” which Sri
> Guru Nanak Dev Ji recited to Bebe Nanaki Ji comes
> in starting of “Aasa Raag”. The “Sodar”
> which Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji recited to Siddhas
> comes in “Jap Ji Sahib”. So in total 3 Sodar
> comes in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
>
> The above points comes from house of Damdami
> Taksal where Brahm Giani Sant Baba Bishan Singh ji
> Muralewale had most of the Anubhavi Arth of Sri
> Guru Granth Sahib Ji from his Brahm Gyan and gave
> this vidya to Sant Baba Gyani Sundar Singh Ji
> Khalsa Bhindrawale. Sant Baba Gyani Sundar Singh
> Ji Khalsa Bhindrawale then documented the meaning
> and taught Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Khalsa the
> same. Sant Baba Kartar Singh Ki Khalsa did
> compliation and created "Sateek Arth wali Pothi"
> and passed on this gyan to Sant baba Jarnail Singh
> Ji during 1974-77 when he was student at Damdami
> Taksal.
>
> DDM gave one serious advice that, "If you have
> still any doubt left then upgrade your Awastha and
> directly talk to Guru Jee Himself".
>
> Bhul Chuk Maaf.
>
> Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,
> Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.


If only "upgrading" our avastha was as simple as you have just said it to be (perhaps I am missing something and their is a website where I can upgrade my Avastha OS ?) .

In all seriousness, by the time a Gurmukh reaches such a state where he/she is able to talk to Guru Sahib, these small, petty issues are just those small and petty.

"Jaskirat" Singh jeeo,

This issue of reading more Baani (Aad Sach...) along with Manglacharan is no issue for us. We have no qualms over someone doing more Paath. If someone is doing Jaap of Manglacharan till "Gurprasaad" then no doubt he only gains from doing so and similarly if someone also does the first Salok - Aad Sach Jugaad Sach... - along with the Mangal, it only brings Khushi of Guru Sahib.

So Bhai, there is nothing more to say on the issue you have raised. The main thing is to actually do Gurbani Paath and Simran of Naam Gurmantr. The important thing to do is do Paath of Gurbani that includes Manglacharan and also do Naam Simran through Gurmantr. The more Gurbani Paath we do, more Naam Simran we do, more Khushi of Guru Sahib we will get. What's there to fight over?

Kulbir Singh

united in humility, love, and purity, is all the quality Waheguru expects of us?

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh,
i would like to humbly share the following Ang of Gurbani. I had begun reading few Angs each day, and today started at Ang 340. Ang 345 about bloodshot eyes reminds me on myself reading and reading to know more about Waheguru, but the request for tips to remove rust in this forum, Naam will bring us closer to Gurujio, and He will give us gyan, guidance, all needed to qualify for union with our creator if this life is our blessed destiny...chinta taki kijiyeh jo anhoni hoey>
[www.srigranth.org]
Bhul chuk muaf
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Kulbir Jee, GSingh Jee and KS Jee ... my humble apologies to you and all Sangat if the post has caused hurt.

Daas was just trying to translate a literature and did not had intention of creating issue/fight or something out of it .... but still accept my apologies if the tone of post appeared like that ....

Still, I have been pondering over the question that why there is 2 EEKA in the begining of Sri Jap Ji Sahib. Please share your thoughts on this. Daas is still in Kindergarten and wish to learn from your valuable experience.

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

Quote

Still, I have been pondering over the question that why there is 2 EEKA in the begining of Sri Jap Ji Sahib. Please share your thoughts on this. Daas is still in Kindergarten and wish to learn from your valuable experience.

The first Eka, is part of Gurbani and not part of the numbering system of Gurbani, as the latter Eka is. The first Eka is a noun as opposed to being an adjective of Onkaar. Eka means he is One.

The second Eka that appears at the end of the first Salok of Siri Jap jee Sahib, is part of the numbering system. The way we see it is that first there is the Manglacharan till Gurprasaad. Then there is the Sirlekh or heading or the name of the Baani - Jap and finally there is the Mangal-roopi Salok at the beginning of Siri Jap jee Sahib. This is followed by 38 Pauris of Siri Jap jee Sahib and in the end there is a Salok that ends Siri Jap jee Sahib.

Gurbani is Agam Agaadh Bodh. The above is based on our meagre understanding of Gurbani.

Kulbir Singh

Bhai GSingh ji,

The second saroop you posted with date of 1644 is incorrect, that saroop I believe is the same on that is available on gurmatveechar.com in the literature section.

On the first page above the Tatkara (contents) it says "suchi pothi ka tatkara raga sabhna ka sammat 1771"

Here 1771 is bikrami date so to get western date we - 57 years making it 1714.

Most of the dates in puratan saroops are written above before the tatkara.

You also posted another pic of saroop from 1653, is this from PDL website? maybe you can re-check the tatkara to see if you have the correct date.

Also I would like to point out that in nearly all of the hand written saroops of sri Guru Granth Sahib ji I have seen on PDL, the mangal for sri Sukhmani is always first/right hand side and "slok" is in correct position unlike the printed saroops.

That is True, it says Sammat 1771, The reason I wrote it as 1644, is because the file that I have as two dates 1644 and 1701. It seems the more accurate date is 1701. I will correct this.


The First Saroop says 1701, which is 1653 A.D

Sorry for the first error, I did not provide the incorrect date on purpose.

Kulbir Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> and finally there is the Mangal-roopi
> Salok at the beginning of Siri Jap jee Sahib. This
> is followed by 38 Pauris of Siri Jap jee Sahib and
> in the end there is a Salok that ends Siri Jap jee
> Sahib.
>
> Gurbani is Agam Agaadh Bodh. The above is based
> on our meagre understanding of Gurbani.
>
> Kulbir Singh

---

Bhai Jee bhaut bahut dhanvaad for illustrious explanation.

Still, one more query on Salok. Sometime the keyword "Salok" is specifically mentioned/written and sometime the panktis which are contained as Salok but in the begining of those pankti the keyword "Salok" is not written. Is this correct ?. If it is correct then how we make out where those panktis are Salok.

Bhul Chuk Maaf.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

No problem bhai GSingh ji, I was not implying that you purposely provided the incorrect date.

I thought it would be good to bring to Sangat's attention of how to get the date of hand written saroops of Guru Granth Sahib ji.

Usually but not always, the likhari wrote the date of the saroop on the first page before the Tatkara (contents).

By the way, is the saroop from 1653 from the PDL website?

No I don't think it is. A Singh gave it to me (Pictures). But it might be on PDL, I have not seen it there though.