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Flawed Logic

Posted by Kulbir Singh 
Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 08:15AM
A young man is filling out a form and at the place where he is asked to write his father's name, he moves to write his father's name but is stopped by his friend. His friend insists that he write some other person's name in there. The young man replies that while he respects that other elderly man but he can't write his name where he should be writing his father's name. His friend accuses him of breaking that man's heart and dishonouring him. The young man is perplexed but goes ahead and fills the field with his real father's name. His friend and many others accuse him of being a fundamentalist and stone-hearted. Is such an accusation not ridiculous?

A married woman is approached by someone to start an illegitimate relation with some other man. The pious woman refuses such sinful suggestions. Ignorant people accuse her of breaking that man's heart and dishonouring him. Is this pious woman supposed to avoid breaking that man's heart at the price of fidelity and loyalty to her husband? Is such an accusation not ridiculous?

There cannot be two fathers of a child and only one woman can give birth to one child, not two. There is only one Vaheguru and there is only one Guru. Guru Sahib can only be one, at a given time, not two. Our Guru is Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee, and that form of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee, to whom Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee gave Gurta-gaddi in year 1708.

The Aad-Bir is extremely respectable but does not have the status of Guru since it does not contain the Baani of Siri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib jee.

A pothi of Siri Sukhmani Sahib or even a Gutka Sahib are extremely respectable and we can and should Matha-tek to it but it cannot be installed on the throne of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee.

A translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee is very respectable but we can't do Prakash of it in place of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee.

Complete Gurbani written in Persian script (there are many such Saroops) or in Roman alphabets, or in Devnagri Lippi (Hindi) or even Punjabi (Padchhed form) cannot be called Guru. Guru is that, who does not change. Still padchhed is respectable and so are all Gurbani pothis and gutka Sahibaan but Guru is only Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee's unchanged form i.e. Laridaar form.

The Padchhed form has changed from 1708; therefore it can't be the Guru, just as complete Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee in Hindi, English or Persian can't be the Guru.

It is our Guru Sahib who is supposed to change us and not the other way around. Today the modern Sikhs have changed the format of the Original Satguru from 1708 and these modern Sikhs are forcing everyone to go along with their Manmatt. This will never happen! Marjeevare will die but not give back to their Satguru.

The whole world changes but what does not change are Naam, Sadhu, Guru and Gobind (Vaheguru). Our Guru is that form that was given the Gurta-Gaddi in 1708. Period.

May Guru Sahib give us Sumatt and enable us to recognize who our saviour is. It is one thing if we are unable to take a certain Gurmat stance but to accuse ones who, by Kirpa of Guru Sahib, are taking steps to be loyal to Guru Sahib, of being hardliners, dishonouring Baani, Hankaari etc. is not right. The first Paap they do is turning back to the original Guru Sahib and supporting the desecration of Guru Sahib and the second Paap they do is when they stop Gursikhs from following the Original and True Guru Sahib - Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee.

Kulbir Singh
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 09:18AM
The AKJ (Minority) seem to be keeping this Asool alive, but the majority half heartedly.
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 09:46AM
Nice - The last paragraph is so true! They mock Gursikhs to hide their own deficiencies.

Manmander Singh
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 10:33AM
What solid proof is there that the jot of Guru Sahib is not in the saroop at the local gurdwara. There are Singhs that have had darshan of Guru Sahib while sitting in the presence of such saroops.
The printing of pad ched saroops was wrong, we can all agree on this. However, this does not change the fact that your opinion is just that, opinion.
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 11:13AM
Sher jee, the jot of Guru Sahib is present everywhere, so that argument seems deficient.
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 11:25AM
I have heard the argument that Guru Sahib's jot is present everywhere and therefore we should not get caught up in these sort of bharams. However, just as Gursikhs in the past only bowed before the form of Guru Sahib which had been given gurgaddi - Guru Nanak Sahib jee and onwards - we should only worship one saroop, our true Guru. If we start to say that, "how do we know if we change the form of gurbani it's still not Guru Sahib...?" we are only submitting ourselves to dubida.
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 11:39AM
Quote

What solid proof is there that the jot of Guru Sahib is not in the saroop at the local gurdwara.

We all know that the Saroop that got Gurta-Gaddi was Damdami Bir and was Laridaar Saroop. So we know for sure that such Bir that is Damdami and Laridaar has Jyot for sure. About anything else, we can't be sure. Lardiaar Saroop is Kartar-made but Padchhed is man-made i.e. an innovation of man. The Saroop that is Kartar-made for sure has Jyot and about anything else, we can't be sure.

Kulbir Singh
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 11:44AM
VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

This topic has been done to death on the internet. Question: What has been done? Has the AKJ/Taksal/Nihungs/whoever actually taken the issue up with the Akaal Takht Sahib for a new, definitive Hukamnama? Has there been a recent call for a ban for Pad Chhed saroops to be printed from the Akaal Takht Sahib? Has there been a massive effort to revive the teaching of Larivaar Gurmukhi? Has anyone pushed for local implementation of Larivaar Saroops? More importantly, is Guru Sahib's Larivaar Saroop even widely available so that Guru Sahib may be Parkash at Guru Ghars?

If the Sikh Panth was able to force Hukamnamas from the Akaal Takht Sahib (Ragi Darshan comes to mind...the New York Gurudwara pressured them to finally take action), then why has this not been made into a campaign? Writing posts and books, saying how Pad Chhed is manmat is all good...what has been DONE about it? As of now, the Gurudwara committees, for the most part, do not see this as a priority, the Granthi Sikhs, for the most part, cannot fluently read Larivaar Gurbani and the Bhai Santa Singh/Bibi Banta Kaur of the Sikh Panth do not even know about the issue of Larivaar vs. Pad Chhed. So, as of now, it is all TALK.

Start a petition, get some resources available to the Sangat, approach Sikh media outlets to discuss the issue/pay for an ad in the newspaper to raise awareness, start a multi-Jathebandi campaign for this issue (ALL Panthic Jathebandi Jathedars should be united to push this issue forward together) to be taken up by the Akaal Takht Sahib and issue a new, clear Hukamnama (and it WILL require a LOT of pressure, as the SGPC - that organization that is responsible for the printing seva, may provide tremendous resistance) that only the Larivaar Saroop will be considered the true Guru for parkash and set a deadline for compliance WITH a PLAN to make Guru Sahib available to all the Gurudwaras (it is of no use making Hukamnamas that nobody can comply with...Western countries do not even have the authorization to print Guru Sahib's saroop). This is not a 1 month initiative, it may even take up a lifetime or more to get full compliance.

A few other notes. IF this initiative is taken up, then there should be ABSOLUTELY NO Jathebandi politics/difference highlighted. It can only be achieved by the combined UNIFIED power of the Khalsa/Sikh (NOT AKJ, NOT TAKSAL, NOT NIHUNG...ONLY SIKH) Panth. So check those Maryada differences at the door and then proceed. There will be resistance, people will try to defame/derail/deny this initiative from taking place, but only through unity, mutual respect, harmony, and almost inhuman determination will this ever be achieved. Keeping the condemnation and negativity when presenting this topic will be of utmost importance to gain support among the community. Having evidence of Puratan Saroops all being in Larivaar and the how recent the trend is for Pad Chhed Saroops (think powerpoint presentation style - 1 picture = 1000 words etc.) is vital. The key turning point would be a direct, new Hukamnama from the Akaal Takht Sahib that states that only the Larivaar Saroops will be allowed for Parkash in Gurudwaras, that all Gurmat ceremonies/smagams must be in the presence of Larivaar Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and specify a timeline to implement (practical and flexible to allow enough time) and making obtaining Guru Sahib's saroops practical.

One side note: Calling people who were administered Amrit or had their Anand Karaj in the presence of Pad Chhed Saroops anything less than Sikhs will earn the ire of the majority of the Panth. When administering the bitter truth as medicine, it must be sugar coated (i.e. presented in such a way) that it is palatable. Do not go gung-ho and declare people manmatti - you WILL come off arrogant and haughty and lose massive support. The majority of Sikhs did not check for Larivaar Saroop parkash in their Amrit Sanchaars and Anand Karaj (as most do not know of the issue). They do not know and are innocent to this knowledge.

If the Akaal Takht Sahib was to issue the Hukamnama and the Gurudwarae were to become compliant, the problem would solve itself for the coming generations. Perhaps the Akaal Takht Sahib could include that in the Hukamnama that an Ardaas for the shortcomings for the Amrit Sanchaars/Anand Karaj performed in the presence of Pad Chhed Saroops has been performed (some sort of penitent clemency) or some other procedure set up to mitigate such shortcomings in the Gurmat ceremonies (Punj Pyare already do an Ardaas at the end of any Gurmat Smagam/ceremony for shortcomings to be forgiven and that could be seen as compensating for the shortcoming...I don't know...Soojhvaan Gursikhs from multiple Jathebandis should do Vichaar on this). Insisting that all people be administered Amrit again or re-marry in the presence of Larivaar Saroop of Guru Sahib with an iron fist will cause a backlash against such a campaign - you would be implying that the majority of the Sikh Panth has been guilty of being fakes and frauds - that will not go over well and not be well received. To take a "too bad - your fault - go get pesh etc." stance on the issue will gain you further hatred and passionate anger, with possible outright defiance against such a campaign. This would need to be thought out by Gurmukhs as to how to mitigate the shortcomings that have been occurring as smoothly as possible). At all times, remember that whatever may be, they are still your Sikh brothers and sisters. Push the wrong buttons, and they can easily start attacking the sanctity of your Amrit Sanchar (i.e. "You did not get the right Fifth Kakkar - aka. Keski - your Amrit was "wrong". -> Theoretical backlash).

Otherwise, this topic will stand as yet another broken record of a small group of Sikhs to which the rest of the Panth sadly remains oblivious to.

Oh, and if you want suah a campaign to outright fail right at the beginning, start talking about Raagmalaa, Keski vs. Kesh, Naam Dhrir and Banaa requirements.
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 11:54AM
Perhaps if these " Bibekee SInghs" whom take a "stance" would go to these Gurdwaras and do the
necessary seva to teach how to read lareedar saroop to the general sangat more and more
Gurdwaras would install Lareedar Saroop on the throne.
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 12:11PM
sher Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What solid proof is there that the jot of Guru
> Sahib is not in the saroop at the local gurdwara.
> There are Singhs that have had darshan of Guru
> Sahib while sitting in the presence of such
> saroops.
> The printing of pad ched saroops was wrong, we can
> all agree on this. However, this does not change
> the fact that your opinion is just that, opinion.


Sher jee

It's not nobody's opinion, A Gurmatta has being passed via Sree Akaal Takht Sahib as follows

Below are the two Gurmatta's passed by Akaal Takht Sahib which still stand today. The Gurmatta was passed after discussion with the whole of Panth's feeling on the issue. THIS IS THE KHALSA PANTH'S FINAL STAMP ON THE MATTER!


“It is improper to do prakaash of (i.e. to make available for worship) Beerh (Volume of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) with separated words.”
(Resolution No. 2682, dated 21st January, 1945, Chief Khalsa Diwan.)


Beerh with separated words should not be printed, nor should the prakaash be done of Beerh with separated words.”
(Resolution No. 7, dated 1st January, 1950. Dharmik Committee of Shromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee.)



“Every generation needs a new revolution.”
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 12:11PM
Very well written by Bhai Kulbir Singh jee. Nice thoughts.

Sher jee, if Satguru jee in His 5th Form, Guru Arjan Dev jee, could lay His Life, ie become martyred, then can we not at least stand up for the cause of Laridaar to pay our debt back? Satguru wrote Bani in Laridar, proof enough that this is Satguru. Satguru wrote Bani in Gurmukhi, not persian or hindi format, proof enough Bani can only be written in Gurmukhi. Even the Sikhs in the past who wrote Gurbani did not go against this format, but this only started in the 20th century. We for some reason have the tendency to look for ways to make our lives easier, to suit out comfort zone. With this ideology in mind, we can never give our life for the sake of Sikhi, in case we have to die for the cause. We should not be linient towards comfortness.
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 12:17PM
VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Please provide text/links to where the Akaal Takht Sahib has passed a Hukamnama on the issue. I see SGPC and the Chief Khalsa Divan referenced. Such resolutions will not be widely accepted as the Akaal Takht Sahib.
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 12:23PM
Gursikhs who are members of Akhand Kirtani Jatha or Taksal shouldn't be the ones we should have to convince about the authenticity of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee's original and real form - the Laridaar Saroop. Convincing the Sikhs at large is a far thing, today there is difficulty convincing learned Gursikhs that Samagams and other Gurmat related programs should only be done in the Hazoori of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee.

And just because a Gursikh cannot, for whatever reason, do Parchaar of Laridaar Saroop at large scale, does not mean that he should not do anything at smaller level or that he has no right to do Parchaar at a smaller scale. We can begin by taking the pledge to do Gurmat Samagams only in the Hazoori of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee. We can educate our friends, relatives and Sangat we hangout with.

Kulbir Singh
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 12:27PM
Please refer to this book written by Jatheydaar Raam Singh jee:

LarreedaarSaroop
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 12:39PM
Quote

This topic has been done to death on the internet. Question: What has been done? Has the AKJ/Taksal/Nihungs/whoever actually taken the issue up with the Akaal Takht Sahib for a new, definitive Hukamnama?

Gurmukhs around the world who know about the importance of Laridaar Saroop are doing (and have done) what they could, given their capabilities and limited resources.

1. Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee, Prominent Mahapuraks and other Gursikhs of that time opposed the printing of Padchhed.

2. Bhai Vir Singh led Chief Khalsa Diwan and SGPC passed resolutions against it.

3. Jathedar Bhai Raam Singh jee of AKJ, wrote a very informative book on this subject.

4. Bhai Kaur Singh jee of Amritsar Sahib wrote a pamphlet on this issue and very convincingly wrote against Padchhed printing of Maharaj jee's Birs.

5. Master Jaswant Singh jee of Amritsar Sahib, wrote a pamphlet to educate Sikhs on the wrong practice of doing Padchhed of Maharaj jee's Saroop.

6. Tapoban related Gursikhs from Toronto, started writing a small book on this subject, which they got published in 2006 or so. Thousands of copies of this book were published and distributed in India. Whoever read this book once, became a convert immediately.

7. Tapoban related Gursikhs, including this Daas, in December 2004, met the then Jathedar of Siri Akal Takhat Sahib in form of a delegation, about doing Prakash of the real Saroop of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee. Jathedar jee assured us that they would take action on this. In those days, Jathedar Tohra issued a letter on behalf of SGPC instructing all historical Gurdwara Sahibaan to do Prakash of only Laridaar Saroop. Apparently, some Gursikhs related to Jatha had met Jathedar Tohra and convinced him about the Laridaar Saroop. This Daas has seen that letter with his own eyes.

Very little may have been done as a whole but given the low number of Gursikhs who are strict on this very important stance, I believe a lot has been done. Gursikhs are having difficulty convincing their own brothers, then what is the hope to convince others?

In any case, we are dogs of Guru Sahib and will continue to bark even if stones are thrown at us by our own brothers. We bark for Guru Sahib and it does not matter what people say. We will continue to do our job of barking. Whether our barking yields results or not, it does not matter. Gursikh's job is to do the righteous Karma; the results are in the hands of Karta - Vaheguru jee.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 12:39PM
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

MS514 jeeo you hit the nail on the head-- 100% spot on ..just as an example there are 3 threads on this very topic at the moment on this forum!!!!
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 12:47PM
Quote

just as an example there are 3 threads on this very topic at the moment on this forum!!!!

NS jeeo:

Is it a Paap to talk about the importance of keeping the original Saroop of Siri Guru Granth Sahib?

Is it a Paap to raise voice against the desecration of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee?

You are talking about 3 threads; we would like to do way more than this. This is nothing.

One whose heart aches for the Beloved, alone knows what pain is. For others it is just a Tamasha.

Kulbir Singh
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 12:58PM


Can Bhai Kulbir Singh or Bhai Jasjit Singh get a hold of the original document from 1950 from Akaal Takht Sahib.
Maybe Master Jaswant Singh will have it. smiling bouncing smiley
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 01:03PM
I have 2 small sakhiaa which will be a thunder stone to many. I will post them as soon as possible.

On lines of Puratan AKJ Smagam, Punjab. Panj Pyareh during Amrit Sanchaar ordered that the paad-chedd saroop in Rensbhai (half through keertan smagam) be done sukh-asaan, and the Original Form given by Satguru Jee be installed. (2 Singhs from the 13 Shaheeds doing Seva, & If I remember correctly Babbar Singhs and other Jatha Singhs).

And theres one more. Will post full incidents. There are Singhs still alive who where doing Seva.
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 01:54PM
We have read thoughts of both sides.



It feels that Pad-ched PRO are keeping their stand for below 2 reasons



1) Shouldnt we do Satkar for the Bani even if its in Pad-Ched ?

- For sure every Bani Akhar,Word,Paath is to be fully respected but we should know/understand that only the
Larivaar Saroop should take the place of the GURU and none else as there is BIG REASON for it -- "Thats the
form Guru Sahib gave Gurdagadi to"


2) My friends have been giving reasons of difficulties to read Larivaar Saroop



- Well this reason looks so odd. Rather that making ourselves conversant with the Larivaar Saroop we want to
change our Guru by doing Padcheds. If someone tommorrow has issue with Pad-ched should he do major
modifications ? Take our Bhagat Bani or something like that. So my dear friends lets ask our MAT (brain) to follow
the Guru and thats real GURMAT (Guru Di Mat) rather than changing the Guru itself which is the purest form of
MANMAT. I am sure if the energy wasted on this topic was used to start doing the SANITHYA from Larivaar Saroop
even one ANG a day we would be all good to Do PAATH from Larivaar Saroop by Guru Sahib's Kirpa in abt 4 Hrs.
So why not to start doing it ? Guess what this atleast brings one BIGGEST Panthic Masla to REST and we unite for
the reason none other than the IDENTITY OF THE GURU.



On the other side, My LARIVAAR Saroop PRO friends have one and one reason and that just makes every else debate/explanation hidden pretty low and the reason is "THATs the Saroop/FORM" guru Sahib gave the bani in and asked us to consider as the GURU.





So bottom line is, rather than going in circles of collecting evidences and debating, we should

1) all make an effort to start reading LARIVAAR Saroops.
2) make sure that we have respect for every Akhar of Bani and let the GURU be in its form of Larivaar Saroop.

I am sure guru sahib will do kirpa and maybe that the INITIATIVE Guru Sahib waiting from us to give us POWER/GLORY back (KHALSA RAAZ).
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 02:18PM
4. Bhai Kaur Singh jee of Amritsar Sahib wrote a pamphlet on this issue and very convincingly wrote against Padchhed printing of Maharaj jee's Birs.

6. Tapoban related Gursikhs from Toronto, started writing a small book on this subject, which they got published in 2006 or so. Thousands of copies of this book were published and distributed in India. Whoever read this book once, became a convert immediately.


Bhai Kulbir Singh jee are the above anywhere online for us to read? Don't leave us in the dark!
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 02:25PM
wjkk wjkf, wheh this thread bring on panthic platform from internet.It make big blast 80% of panthic people oppose to parkash of larrivar sarup. Because this closed a great buisness.BY which alots of dera goes down ecnomicaly and many peoples disoccupied. for example if one dera opened 100 akhand path sahib which give job to 1000 person in which 99% pathi was doing path only for income have difficultly support parkash of larrivar sarup.Dass went last year to SHRI AMRITSAR SAHIB to bring GURU SAHIB'S larrivar sarup.THERE was not sarup available at moment.And there i know shromni commettie print 12000 sarup padshed and only 900 sarup larrivar. Now from this ratio we guess where panth was going. bhag heen bhram chottan khave
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 02:45PM
BHAG HEEN ji very true.

DAAS though feels that we dont need to straight away target SGPC. We should practise it in our lives and try to make everyone else in the circle away. Think of this if 200 People reading this FORUM implement this in their lives (fully convinced) , wont that be a big achievement ? and then those 200 reach out to 2 people each and mulitiplication goes on. That would be the way to do it. We have to start from ourselves and spread the message.
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 03:26PM
People think very objectively here, that's where the problem lies.
If someone is at fault here, it is they who made the decision to legalize pad ched saroops in the past, not the Sikhs in the Panth now.
Majority of the panth today is not at fault, I myself got to know gurbani in padched form and only saw lareevaar bani after sometime.
How can blame someone "for NOT knowing what the truth is" ? I urge the keyborad warrior in the forum to reflect on this fact for a moment.

Doing parchar of lareevaar but with no effort in teaching and providing Gurbani is Lareevar form including saroops of SatGuroo isn't going bear fruits in the long term.
And see this in the context of worldwide.

Educating others is the best option, but when immature youths go around in their telling others their amrit sanchar/anand karaj is not valid. This just leaves a bad taste in the mouth of others & does turn people away from even listing pro-lareevaar parchar.

And I say this because once a singh told me the gurbani dass has read or done abhiyaas of is NOT safal because it was not done from a lareevaar gutka/pothi Sahib. Kattarpune di bhi had hunde hai.

The ignorance amazed me, because, though the sargun form gurbani has been changed, how does is make the shabad-naad(nirgun form of gurbani) not SatGuroo?

One may have all the right ingredient in hand to make a delicious cake but if one doesn't know the right technique. The probability is your cake won't turn out good.

In the same manner, we may believe in as many "right gurmat asools" in our jeevan. But, if we do not know the >>right manner<< in which parchar is to be done, the probability is the message won't spread.

Chota veer
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 03:37PM
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Whaeguru Je ke Fateh

Kulbir Singh jeeo you asked::

NS jeeo:

Is it a Paap to talk about the importance of keeping the original Saroop of Siri Guru Granth Sahib?

Is it a Paap to raise voice against the desecration of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee?


Answer to both questions is no -- not PAAP--however without consensus and serious debate on practicality which is lacking - it won't get no where. If as you're suggesting such passions we all go blazing in on all Guru Ghars about this - it will never work - we have to "blend and send"- -since both jathebandies- taksal- akj - have failed on the blending and opened their own Gurdwaras - how will you bring about laridaar saroops in to the Gurdwaras which you've left behind..??

And don't forget where some one above mentioned that some have darshan of Maharaaj even though it pad ched sarrop in the Gurdwara - is the example you should staring at in the face- why and how do you think this was possible?? -- Answer- due the Bhavna of the premi who didn't think of SGGS as PAD CHED - but EVERYTHING - GURU MAHARAJ himself on the throne--!!!! Hence Mahraaj has ways of working all in all directives- way beyond us keeraas mokares. Give us practicality - pop into your local Gurdwara sangat on sunday diwan and ask all the sangat to put hands up who knows what PAD- CHED IS? gurantee you will not see and 100% hands up--then ask them do you think the SGGS saroop your doing matha tek to be your ultimate GURU - answer will be a 100% show off hands.

Finally - a breakdown of pracitcal walk the talk steps please herein
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 03:54PM
I have seen the following viewpoints from reading some of the pro-pad ched posts:

1) Some moderate or shall I say illiterate Gursikhs want to challenge those Singhs who stand up for the cause of Sikhi. They want to prove them wrong, as well as other things that they do such as keep sarbloh bibek.
2) Since it is the norm these days that Parkaash is not done in most places, some Gursikhs want to "fit-in" and not look different, despite the earth sky differences between Manmat and Gurmat.
3) Some Gursikhs want to downgrade solid Singhs.

It doesn't matter what the actual reason, whether it is sher ji or ns, the Truth remains that Siri Guru jee wrote Bani in Larridaar and we do not have the administrative authorities to alter this. A Sikh in the end is supposed to learn from Guru Sahib, accept his or her mistakes, and move on accordingly to Gurmat. Whatever challenge one may face, whether it is having difficulty reading Larrivaar or having to give your head for the sake of Sikhi, we should learn to accept. Sikhs have had their skulls removed, Sikhs laid on railroad tracks and given their lives, and what not, but not one of them chose to alter anything that is set out by our Guru jee, that includes writing Gurbani in Larridaar. Ns jee, you want to challenge such Singhs who want to stand up for the cause of Sikhi, but let me tell you this, this is going to come back and hit you hard one day. What goes around, comes around. Who are we to start separating Gurbani, and then claim it to be right? What right do we have to decide so and so is Guru? Why can't we accept that Larridaar is Bani, and move on? In other words, you are basically saying Guru Sahib was mislead, He didn't know anything, and only you know what will help us accelerate further into Sikhi.

It is funny though how some ignorant people, despite knowing the fact that Bani was written in Laridar, chose to say that it does not matter how Gurbani is written. Ask yourself this, are we surrender to Guru jee, or is Guru jee supposed to surrender to us?

Bhai Sukhdeep Singh jee has pointed out that first we should learn Larridaar, agreed. However, look here bro: the Gurudwaras also need to replaced with Tyar bar Tyar Chardikala Singhs, the actual Gursikhs, who will do seva properly and accordingly to Gurmat. The actual Singhs who stand up for Sikhi. The actual Singhs who stand for Larridaar, who want to learn and read Larridaar, in other words, the actual Granthees of the Khalsa Panth. These everyday Granthis do not want to read Larridaar because "it is difficult".
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 04:07PM
Quote
ns
And don't forget where some one above mentioned that some have darshan of Maharaaj even though it pad ched sarrop in the Gurdwara - is the example you should staring at in the face- why and how do you think this was possible?? -- Answer- due the Bhavna of the premi who didn't think of SGGS as PAD CHED - but EVERYTHING - GURU MAHARAJ himself on the throne--!!!!

This argument seems very flawed.

1) Guru Maharaj has the ability to give Darshan to anyone He wishes to, at any given rate, time, situation or place.
2) Bhai Rama Singh jee of UK, before he became a Singh and was a mona, he had Darshan of Guru Gobind Singh jee while laying in bed, 2am Amritvela. Guru Sahib came to tell him that he had been sent to do parchaar of Sikhi and get amrit chak as soon as possible.
3) Observing from the above example, one can not say that Guru Sahib is pad ched, or pad ched pothi so called "parkaash" is Guru Sahib.
4) Sikhi is Khaneyo Tikhi and Valho Niki, we are walking on a rope in order to get to the other side, and underneath the rope are blood thirsty lions, if you fall, you will be eaten by them. So you have to be very careful in order to get to other side. Same way, a Sikh of The Guru has to accept all difficulties, whether it is reading Larridaar Gurbani, or giving life, because this is what makes a Gursikh Bibeki(obedient).
5) We do not have the right to alter Gurbani, there is a Sakhi when a Sikh read one Sihari from a Pankti wrong, and Guru Sahib ordered Sikhs to beat him up. But here we are doing much more beyond that.
6) ns jee, has replacement of pad ched pothis into 'gurudwaras' done any good to the sangat? Think about how many monay have sprung up, think about how much vemukhta has spread, think about the rehat that has dissapeared, was this possible had we done Parkaash of Larridaar?

Don't try to prove yourself right by trying to challenge Gursikhs. You may try to find some flaw in Gursikhs who stand up for Larridaar, but ns jee, here is a treat for you:

Bhulan Andar Sabh Ko, Abhul Guru Kartaar

We all make mistakes, only Satguru Guru Maharaj Vaheguru is flawless. But this galti(fault) has crossed all boundaries.
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 05:01PM
How do u guys know that the internet warriors are not doing Santhiya classes for lareevaar reading and writing ?

Well it just so happens that they are!

How about the people that say lets do parchaar of lareevaar saroops, while holding a keertan with a pad ched saroop.

Now that to me is more hypocritical.

Gurmukh pyareo, do not make assumptions or false accusations.

This goes for both sides of the fence.

Also, sometimes, the ones who stay quiet on the topic are secretly doing seva in their own way, for a certain topic, be it lareevaar or sarabloh bibek. Let's not assume that they are not doing anything for the cause.

The point is right and wrong. Period! The point isn't what you are doing or what I am doing ?

A wise man once said, "You want change ? You be the change!"

Vaheguroo
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 05:20PM
I don't think the issue at hand his

- if people will be able to immediately and fluently read larivaar
- if individuals have derived enormous benefits, possibly darshan, from doing sangat in presence of padched bir
- or even if majority of people in gurdwaras today are okay with bowing to padched bir and dont care for causing any "splits" in the panth

The real issue at hand is
- printing padched birs of guru sahib is anti-GURMAT
- are we not willing to do anything for the respect of our own Guru?

All other issues are minor and would iron out themselves.
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Re: Flawed Logic
June 01, 2011 05:27PM
Thanks to Bhai Kulbir Singh and the others for posting. This is a very big issue that needs to be addressed.

Not to be offensive but these are the kind of things that needs to be discussed on this forum, lately I haven't seen any of them so I've lost interest in this site.

The biggest parchar we can do is learn how to read larreevaar ourselves

Daas has been learning over the past year, and after a while it becomes really easy.
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