Sarbloh kirpans and batai

Wahegurrooojeekaakhalsa wahegurrooojeekeefateh

Just a few questions with regards to kirpans and batai

I am aware that we should only have sarbloh kirpans. I went ratowal recently and obtained an order for sarbloh kirpans and batai

I have got them which is all good but they seem to be very shiny... especially for sarbloh, it looks more like stainless steel

The batai do not seem to give the iron taste even though they did this liquid drop test to show the purity of iron and it is magnetic

from kirpan point of view - there are different types of blades be it damascus or wootz. They have iron in it but in different quantities, how much iron do we want in the kirpans and batai?

Is there a sure way test that you all use to make sure it is sarbloh?

For example, if it is magnetic it is okay to use/ wear?

Where do you all get your kirpans from?

Wahegurrooo

The technique and means to make Sarbloh is lost.

Does anybody have an idea how to make sarbloh?

From the top of my, this is what I know.

Iron is extracted from iron ore (unless you're lucky enough yo find a meteor made from pure iron). Iron is extracted from iron ore using some kind of furnace. Most techniques especially older ones are unable to produce pure iron. What usually comes out is something like caste iron which contains impurities and also a high carbon content 2-4%. Cast iron is used to make pots and pans (and I presume batteh). A further process is carried out where this impure iron is heated in the furnace again to remove the slag and reduce carbon content. The end product contains less then 1% carbon and is 98-99% iron - this is confusingly called 'carbon steel'

The best material for swords EVEN TODAY is carbon steel (sarbloh) and NOT stainless steel as many claim. (Stainless steel contains at least 13% chromium and then various other metals to compensate for the brittleness caused by the chromium)

Sword makers use carbon steel grade 1060 which is 0.6% carbon. Grade 1045 (0.45% carbon) can also be used but cannot hold a sharp edge as well as 1060.

Pure iron (100% iron) is difficult if not impossible to produce using traditional methods and would be pretty much useless as a sword.

Wootz steel is made from carbon steel, though the exact technique has been lost.

So Sarbloh is not 100% Iron which makes sense as pure Iron is very malleable and will deform easily.


Coming to carbon composition I am interested in finding out the composition range of carbon in the 'SarbLoh' used at Guru Sahibs time and it will depend on the technique used at that time by 'Lohars'.

Thus the question remains if we do have the technique to produce SarbLoh and eventually SarabLoh Shashter which have been documented to 'bear bending and crumpling, and yet be fine and sharp'

The sword makers in the 1600 / 1700s were very advanced at making swords, especially in India / Middle East. I agree, It would be very interesting to know their exact techniques. Both in producing the iron in the first place and also the technique used to fold / forge swords. If I had to bet, the swords of old are superior to those of new.

You can be fairly certain, that the carbon composition in sarbloh used for swords would be in the 0.6 - 0.75 range. Some makers may have combined different grade irons to improve blade qualities eg use high carbon steel in the centre of the sword and lower carbon content on the edges.

By far the most important part of sword making (more so then composition to some extent) is heat treatment which hardens the steel. This is measured now on a Rockwell scale. A hardness of 50 - 52 is best on swords. However a higher hardness can be used on short blades / daggers to improve sharpness and edge retention.

Master sword smiths differentially heat treat a blade, leaving the spine softer and blade harder.

I've given up looking for sarbloh kirpans in India, I'm getting a gora to make me some here in England.

Manmander Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wahegurrooojeekaakhalsa wahegurrooojeekeefateh
>
> Just a few questions with regards to kirpans and
> batai
>
> I am aware that we should only have sarbloh
> kirpans. I went ratowal recently and obtained an
> order for sarbloh kirpans and batai
>
> I have got them which is all good but they seem to
> be very shiny... especially for sarbloh, it looks
> more like stainless steel
>
> The batai do not seem to give the iron taste even
> though they did this liquid drop test to show the
> purity of iron and it is magnetic
>
> from kirpan point of view - there are different
> types of blades be it damascus or wootz. They have
> iron in it but in different quantities, how much
> iron do we want in the kirpans and batai?
>
> Is there a sure way test that you all use to make
> sure it is sarbloh?
>
> For example, if it is magnetic it is okay to use/
> wear?
>
> Where do you all get your kirpans from?
>
> Wahegurrooo

Back to the original post, sarbloh if finished well can look very much like stainless steel. This is done by polishing with finer and finer grits.

I think there are tests which can be done to check iron purity, some companies specialise in metallurgy and can analyse metal samples ;

Try this link - [www.rotechlabs.co.uk]

No, just because a steel is magnetic does not mean it is free from other alloys, many tool steels contain chromium but are still magnetic.

IsinghR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The sword makers in the 1600 / 1700s were very
> advanced at making swords, especially in India /
> Middle East. I agree, It would be very interesting
> to know their exact techniques. Both in producing
> the iron in the first place and also the technique
> used to fold / forge swords. If I had to bet, the
> swords of old are superior to those of new.
>
> You can be fairly certain, that the carbon
> composition in sarbloh used for swords would be in
> the 0.6 - 0.75 range. Some makers may have
> combined different grade irons to improve blade
> qualities eg use high carbon steel in the centre
> of the sword and lower carbon content on the
> edges.
>
> By far the most important part of sword making
> (more so then composition to some extent) is heat
> treatment which hardens the steel. This is
> measured now on a Rockwell scale. A hardness of 50
> - 52 is best on swords. However a higher hardness
> can be used on short blades / daggers to improve
> sharpness and edge retention.
>
> Master sword smiths differentially heat treat a
> blade, leaving the spine softer and blade harder.
>
> I've given up looking for sarbloh kirpans in
> India, I'm getting a gora to make me some here in
> England.


Of all the papers I have read the wootz steel carbon content is upwards of 1% but not more than 2% [actual chemical analysis of couple of damascus blades manufactured out of wootz]

It is the carbon content at more than 1% which leads to formation of Fe3C. The formation of ferric carbides leads to the distinct characteristics of hardness and edge retention to blades manufactured out of Wootz.

I am not sure whether what was 'Sarabloh' of Guru Sahibs times is even available to us today?

That's interesting, as what I have read generally of sword makers at the time (globally) is a preference for carbon content less then 1% (above this the blade is too brittle, even now this is true) maybe that was what was special about Wootz, an ability to retain toughness at higher compositions of carbon? I would be surprised if Wootz steel was used widely, I have seen a few Puratan shastar and and dont recall all of them having a pattern welded/Wootz appearance. I especially don't think it was used for batteh and utensils. I think the carbon content and technique used would vary depending on intended application of metal. Hence I don't think you can put an exact definition on sarbloh depending on composition / technique used.
IMO it's safe to call iron with carbon content under 2% sarbloh.