ਭੁਲਣ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਅਭੁਲੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥

A couple of days ago I received a disturbing private message from someone on this forum. Using an alias name the person was claiming Im a RSS agent and I slander saints. I asked him for his location and name so I can clear the matter up in person but he has not responded. So I thought I should clear matters up.

I dont believe we have to to believe in everything Gurmukhs have said or did in the past because at the end of the day they are only human, and every human has capabilities of making mistakes. Only SRi Guru Ji is free of mistake.
ਭੁਲਣ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਅਭੁਲੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥
Somebody asked a question about lighting toonph, jots, and reciting Sri JapJi Sahib during AKahnd Paath and I said this is manmat despite Giani Gurbachan Singh Jis writings on this maryada. This does not mean I think Giani Gurbachan Singh Ji is a manmukh. Of course NOT! Im sure Giani Ji had good intentions and he was convinced this maryada orignated from Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Personally I think he was misinformed and I have no guilt calling this maryada Manmat because its a blind ritual and it goes against panthic maryada. Im still the dust of Gurmukhs like Giani Gurbachan SIngh Ji despite somebody giving them misinformation. I can never refer to him as a Manmukh just because I dont agree with some of the maryada he propagated. Again I dont think he would purposely propagate something if he knew it went against maryada.

There are numerous Gurmukhs who I respect despite them saying or doing things which I believe are contrary to Maryada. I have lots of respect for Baba Nand SIngh Ji ( Kaleran) but does this mean I have to believe in everything he said or did or believe in Nanksar Maryada. I dont feel any guilt in calling huge idol pictures of Sri Guru Nanak DEv Ji in the darbar sahib as Manmat. Panthic Maryada states clearly such pictures should not be present in the darbar sahib. Gurbani calls idol worship as manmat.I have respect for Baba ISher Singh Ji ( Rara Sahib), but I dont agree with him singing dharna ( kachi bani) in the Sri Darbar Sahib. Panthic Maryada makes it clear only Gurbani, and writings of Bhai Nand Lal SIngh Ji and Bhai Gurdas Ji can be sung in the darbar sahib.In the past anybody who composed their own hyms which were similar to Gurbani and sung them to the sangat in the Darbar Sahib faced serious conseqeunces. During Baba Jis times and even today kirtan maryada has changed radically and people have become more complacent on kirtan maryada. Im sure Baba Ji had good intentions and he meant no wrong he was most likely trying to simplfy bani to make it understandable for the uneducated masses, but still I believe in the panthic maryada despite my immense respect for Baba Isher Singh Ji who as pooran Gurmukh.

The Gurmukhs I have mentioned are one billion times better then me. I did not purposely look for any faults in them. My point Im trying to make is only Sri Guru Ji is without fauly and one can respect Gurmukhs and at the same time disagree with their choices or beliefs. If we dont question non-gurmat practices then who is to prevent hindu practices from creeping into our Gurghars.. Panthic Maryada has its faults but if people took the maryada seriously then Gurdwara Sahibs would be full with more bliss instead of the ritualistic/business like atmosphere. In the house of Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji ( Gurdwara Sahib) maryada remains supreme. I dont belong to any dera and if any dera propagates maryada which is contrary to Gurmat/panthic maryada then I have the right to dissent without being labeld as RSS or anti -sant.
ਭੁਲਣ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਅਭੁਲੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥

Veer jeeo,

But by highlighting as you do on each and every Gursikh mentioned who were zillion times better than us - what are you doing to the mind of an innocent Gursikh or teenager who will scour this forum for answers. Do you know the implications on the individual? as you know the answer ther eis no way you could know - then it's better not to mention- unless the whole of sarbat khalsa or panth agrees with your views.

We are ridden with these sort of interpetations which only drive us downwards to in any way forwards in any shape form what soever.

Sukhdeep Singh Jio,
remember you have Him on your side, rss threats empty as when alone and without their weapon, your Gurmukh power can simply blow them away with your one Naam/Shabad Gurbani drenched breath!
Bhul chuk muaf
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa,
Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Dangerous to go down the route to say Sant Ji was misinformed. Were they really, could they not make up their own minds with such high avastha? By questioning Gurbachan Singh, we are also then questioning methods used by Sant Kartar Singh and Sant Jarnail Singh Ji. This opens up a whole can of worms and can rapidly turn into slanging match between Jathebandhies and thats the last thing anyone needs.

...sorry...just realised I misread message that Sukhdeep Singh Jio is being accused of being rss and not threatened by rss..

Unjan Jeeo,

Personally I think Gurmukhs can still be misinformed/mistaken despite their high spiritual avastha. Giani Gurbachan Singh Ji was a Gurmukh of high spiritual avastha he believed in Raag mala. Bhai Randhir SIngh JI was a gurmukh of a high spiritual avastha yet he did not believe in Raag Mala. One of them had to be wrong/misinformed. So yes its possible for a Gurmukh to be misinformed. How many Gurmukhs are misinformed in not following Bibek?

The point is we should look up to Gurmukhs and learn from all the positives. It doesnt mean we need to agree with everything they said or did.

By the way, can we define; what makes something manmat and not Gurmat. To me, it seems, generally If we do not like a practice, we are convinced that it is manmat.

Can not we use some alternative "word" for something, which we do not like. By "deciding and announcing" something we are not convinced, to be MANMAT, we definitely (technically speaking) say that GURU SAHIB agrees with me on this point. Is it logical to say so, even if we are not saying it intentionally?

OK, let us assume, ABC practice was not there during GURU SAHIB times. Does not GURU KI SANGAT has right to decide about the merit of a practice, under current situations.

Is it possible, that we can avoid this term MANMAT, for subjects which deserve the benefit of doubt, at least ?

Please excuse me, if do not make any sense.

A side from this topic, what is this name calling all about? I didn't knew that RSS is so busy recruiting people? We as Sikhs should refrain from *Name Calling* even if we disagree with someone. Calling someone a *RSS agent* is such a common insult thesedays that it has become a joke.

If someone cannot convince or discuss with other person, there is no reason to start *Name Calling*. Does anyone in this group know how actually RSS recruits people? Moreover which RSS people talk about?

Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh
or
Rashtriya Sikh Sangat

I have seen on some websites claiming AKJ/DDT/Nanaksar/Nihung jathebandis as RSS agents? What is this all about? Some even call missonaries RSS agent?

Has anyone been ever contacted by RSS especially in US/UK/Canada?

Please accept my apology but I don't think calling anyone a RSS agent really help anyone.

Vaheguroo Jee Kaa Khalsaa
Vaheguroo Jee Kee Fateh!

MB SIngh Veer Ji,

My simple definition of Manmat is mainly based on Gurbani and Panthic Maryada. We are a community and we have a document ( rehat maryada) which clearly defies what is Manmat. If the panth has labeled something as manmat then I have no problems with calling such practices as manmat as well. Manmat is part of Gurmat teminology we cannot stop the usage of Gurmat terminology because it might offend others. Next we will says lets no longer use the words Nigura, Manmukh, Veymukh , Sakat, etc. Then everyone will be considered as a Sikh and any conduct will be permissible. We are a organized religion with rules and regulations. We shouldnt water down Gurmat terminology for the sake of peoples comfort

Sukhdeep Singh Ji,

In that case lets stick to highlighting the positive merits of these hawks and not points that in comparison keerey like us do not agree with (credit to Kulbir Singh for plagiarising an analogy they once used ). They only had immense praise and love for each other and we should attempt to take lead from these jewels where possible. I don't know of a single time where like minded jathey in the past would use words that would cause friction, in fact it was the exact opposite even with known but minute differences of opinion. We all know that both Jathas in the past attended joint programmes, and these topics were far from the forefront of their minds.

sukhdeep singh could you please clairfy what you mean by "panthic maryada" which one are you refering to?

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Sukhdeep Singh Veer Ji, would you kindly do a small assignment for me. Please find Gurbani Pankities, which use this word MANMAT or MAN KI MAT and share with all. Let us see, how GURU SAHIB JI is using these words. I did try, but could not find. Please help.

ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ

ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ਕਰਹਿ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੀਆ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ॥
The egotistical are engrossed in egotism, ensnared by the intellect of the mind.

ਜੋ ਦੀਸੈ ਸੋ ਵਿਣਸਣਾ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਤਿਆਗੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Whatever is seen, shall pass away. Abandon the intellectualizations of your mind. ||1||Pause||

ਮਨੁ ਅਰਪਉ ਧਨੁ ਰਾਖਉ ਆਗੈ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਸਗਲ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥

ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਤਿਆਗਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਬੂਝਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਈਐ ਰੇ ॥
Renounce the intellectual cleverness of your mind, O humble servants of the Lord; understanding the Hukam of His Command, peace is found.

ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਮਤਾਗਲੁ ਮਤਾ ॥
The intellect of the mind is like a drunken elephant.

ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਤਿਆਗਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਏਹਾ ਬਾਤ ਕਠੈਨੀ ॥
So renounce the clever intellect of your mind, O humble servants of the Lord, no matter how hard this may be.

ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਤਿਆਗੀਐ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
So renounce the intellectual cleverness of your mind, and listen to the Teachings. ||1||Pause||

ਭਜੁ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗਿ ਦਇਆਲ ਦੇਵ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਤਿਆਗੁ ਜੀਉ ॥
Vibrate, and meditate on the Merciful Divine Lord in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy; renounce your intellectual mind.

ਜੋ ਗੁਰੁ ਕਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਭਲ ਮੀਠਾ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਤਿਆਗਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Whatever the Guru says is good and sweet to me. I have renounced the intellectual wisdom of my mind. ||1||Pause||

ਝੂਠੀ ਮਨ ਕੀ ਮਤਿ ਹੈ ਕਰਣੀ ਬਾਦਿ ਬਿਬਾਦੁ ॥
False is the wisdom of the mind; its actions inspire useless disputes.

Quote

Sukhdeep Singh Veer Ji, would you kindly do a small assignment for me. Please find Gurbani Pankities, which use this word MANMAT or MAN KI MAT and share with all. Let us see, how GURU SAHIB JI is using these words. I did try, but could not find. Please help.

Veer Ji , the word Manmat is used in both Gurbani, Gurmat Maryada, and Gurmat literature.
For example , in Gurbani

ਮਨਮਤਿ ਝੂਠੀ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ
ਸਗਲ ਬਿਗੂਤੇ ਭਾਵੈ ਦੋਇ ॥

Durmat which also is similar to manmat is in usage more the word manmat in Gurbani.

Quote

sukhdeep singh could you please clairfy what you mean by "panthic maryada" which one are you refering to?

I am referring to the maryada which was composed in the early 20th century by numerous Gurmat scholars. It may have its flaws but still its one binds us together as a community. Without a common set of principles/rules a community will not last long. Very few Gurdwara Sahibs follow this maryada today this is why many of our Gurdwaras have become breeding grounds of MANMAT instead of places of Gurmat parchar.

ਮਨਮਤਿ ਝੂਠੀ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥
The intellect of the mind is false; only the Lord is True.

ਮਨ ਮਤਿ ਹਉਲੀ ਬੋਲੇ ਬੋਲੁ ॥
While the intellect is lightweight, as is the speech one speaks.

Veer Ji, I tried and find Gurbani as above. As you say definition of MANMAT should be (1) Gurbani and (2) PANTHIC MARYADA based, let us consider the former first. Later on we may proceed to PANTHIC MARYADA part.

In the above Gurbani, all we find is that MANMAT is something which is false/lightweight and it is like a drunken elephant, its actions inspire useless disputes, egotistical persons are ensnared by it and it needs to be renounced by GURMUKHS.

Based on that, it seems, the nature of topics we discussed earlier in this thread, should not be categorised under the titles MANMAT vs GURMAT. Do you agree? Please do give your thoughts.

Waheguru Ji.

Veer Ji, the definition of Manmat in Gurbani is clear it refers to falsehood and is the opposite of Sach ( Gurmat). Only practices ( maryada) which brings us closer to naam can be referred to Gurmat.

Waheguru JI Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji KI Fateh

Veer Ji, I was of the impression that the topics we discussed e.g. JAPUJI path or Dhoof or Kunbh Jal etc etc are not of the nature that these can be easily put in MANMAT category, (as GURBANI defines MAN KI MAT). But you seem to be very much sure. Probably you are correct. May be, we can discuss it, when we meet.

Dhanwaad Ji

MB Singh Veer Ji, sorry for not making my self clear in previous post. My definition of Manmat derives from Gurbani, Gurmat Literautre, and Pathic Maryada.. The practice of jots, kunbh, and other paath with Sri Akhand Paath is defined as manmat. The definition of Manmat in Gurbani may be slightly different then the definition used in Gurmat Literature , and Panthic maryada, but either way the principle is the same. Manmat is to digress from the Gurus teachings. Sri Gur Hargobind built Sri Akal Takht with his own two hands. Sri Guru Ji has given authority to the panth. Any practice which the panth regards as manmat is manmat. Ask anyone who studies Gurmat Maryada and they will tell you the first principle of Gurmat Maryada is to keep the panth together, any body who breaks up the panth is committing a great blunder ( kurehit) . If we openly go against Panthic Marayada we are breaking up the panth. Also, Bhai Chaupa SIngh Jis rehatnama says we should obey the decision of panths collective will (sarbat khalsa)

Regarding Panthic Maryada, we must acknowledge that it is not a mere document, it was there even before and after its compilation. Moreover, trying and understanding Panthic Maryada, does not mean disrespect to the Panth or the document. I observe that people who often show more love with the document, are poor in their actions.

ਭੁਲਣ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਅਭੁਲੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥

So, there is always chance to look further deeper into the document.

Bhul Chuk Maaf Hove Ji