MEANING OF THE WORD ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ word is very very inportant and special word for understanding.

My personal realisation about the meaning of this word is different from what
we all know till date..

The meaning of this word ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ is given as FORMLESS. It is worth considering
to what extent the meaning of this word should be understood as FORMLESS.

From Gurbanee one can learn that this word ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ is a reference for the CREATOR.
It can be understood that in Gurbanee CREATOR is A JOTi being refered as IKu EKANKAAR.

There are other references for the CREATOR in Gurbanee and these references are GuR,
PRABH, HARi,RAAM,GOBIND,GOPAL and many others NOUN /COLLECTIVE NOUN words.

From Gurbanee one can also learn that the CREATOR in Gurbanee is ,ACTIVE,LIVING and
VIBRATING.
So it should be important to understand how such an entity can be FORMLESS.?

From careful understanding of Gurbanee one can make out the CREATOR as envisaged in
Gurbanee can not be FORMLESS.
The CREATOR in Gurbanee has very definite and specific FORM and that Form is refered as
SATi SAROOP.

Therefore such an important understanding should be shared to have clear views on
the meaning of this word ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

Very interesting thoughts, Bagga jeeo. Vaheguru is formless in the sense that he does not have a Punj-Bhootak Chhavee or bodyi.e. does not have a material or physical body but He is certainly a Person and not a system or formless in the sense that he can't be communicated with or beheld. In Sachkhand, He can be beheld, loved, and communicated with.

Kulbir Singh

VEER KULBIR SINGH Ji,

There is no doubt about this what is being stated as
Vaheguru is formless in the sense that he does not have a Punj-Bhootak Chhavee or bodyi.e. does not have a material or physical body .

But one can see that in Gurbanee the word ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ is the reference for a particular and specific Form of the CREATOR.
GuR.PRABH or EKANKAAR..The Form is that of JOTi

Since the word GuROO in Gurbanee is the reference for SABADu ,I would disagree to the point that He is certainly a person.

It is important to understand the relationship between three words GuROO....GuRu....and GuR to understand the SATi SAROOP
or THE REAL FORM of THE CREATOR. as GuR JOTi

Again I may clarify a point that in Gurbanee CREATOR is not ONE as we understand ,.In Gurbanee
EKANKAAR as well as ONKAAR both are being refered as CREATOR. certainly a SYSTEM to be understood as

EKANKAAR.ONKAAR. and this is denoted thru very first SYMBOL .The SYMBOL is Simply a reference for GuR.

And it is EKANKAAR which is NIRANKAAR..........A crucial point of understanding.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

VEER KULBIR SINGH Ji,
There is a quote from Gurbanee as

ਗੁਰ ਜੈਸਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਦੇਵ ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਭਾਗੁ ਸੁ ਲਾਗਾ ਸੇਵ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ

Would you pl make me clear about the word ਗੁਰ whether SINGULAR or PLURAL.

Bhul chuk maaf

Daas.

Prakash.S.Bagga

Quote

ਗੁਰ ਜੈਸਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਦੇਵ ॥ ਜਿਸੁ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਭਾਗੁ ਸੁ ਲਾਗਾ ਸੇਵ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ

Would you pl make me clear about the word ਗੁਰ whether SINGULAR or PLURAL.

Singular.

Kulbir Singh

VEER KULBIR SINGH Ji,
Surprisingly you have taken the word ਗੁਰ SINGULAR without mentioning the KARAK.

My understanding is that the word ਗੁਰ here as KARTA KARAK is PLURAL..


Similarly in a quote from ASAA Di VAAR as

VAAIN CHELE NACHANi Gur..pp465 SGGS ji

..............Prof Sahib Singh ji clearly gives the meaning to the word ਗੁਰ as PLURAL.

I dont deny the fact that the word ਗੁਰ in Gurbanee mostly its use is there as SAMPADAN and SAMBADHIK
so that the word can be considered as SINGULAR Collective Noun.

But ias KARTA KARAK the ਗੁਰ is certainly a PLURAL word .Can we deny this fact of Grammar in Gurbanee
.
Veer Kulbir ji if you convince that the word ਗੁਰ as such is not nowhere used in Gurbanee as KARTA KARAK
I can change my understanding..



Therefore it is important that one makes use of grammar in a judicial manner then only one can
justify the meaning of Gurbanee words..

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

Quote

Surprisingly you have taken the word ਗੁਰ SINGULAR without mentioning the KARAK.

My understanding is that the word ਗੁਰ here as KARTA KARAK is PLURAL..

If ਗੁਰ had been singular then ਜੈਸਾ would have been ਜੈਸੇ. The presence of ਜੈਸਾ proves that ਗੁਰ is singular. Professor Sahib Singh has also interpreted it as singular - ਗੁਰੂ ਵਰਗਾ ਹੋਰ ਕੋਈ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੈ।

According to Gurbani Viyakaran, ਗੁਰ should have Aunkad in the end and I have had Darshan of a Saroop where Aunkad is there at the end of ਗੁਰ. If need be, I can post a picture of this old handwritten Saroop.

Above all, Siri Guru jee here is doing Sifat Salaah of Satguru jee and Satguru is only one. Then how can ਗੁਰ be plural.

Quote

Similarly in a quote from ASAA Di VAAR as
VAAIN CHELE NACHANi Gur..pp465 SGGS ji
..............Prof Sahib Singh ji clearly gives the meaning to the word ਗੁਰ as PLURAL.

You are correct that here the word Gur is surely plural as it is evident from the presence of the plural verb Nachan.

Kulbir Singh

VEER KULBIR SINGH Ji,

Thank you for partially understanding my point of view.

My point still remains unexplained about the word ਗੁਰ used as KARTA KARAK..

And for this reason I dont agree cent % with the views of Prof Sahib Singh ji interpretations.


One can see that we always consider the word ਗੁਰ as - ਗੁਰੂ and the word Gur with matra of Aukad is
interprated as Gur.

As KARTA KARAK the word ਗੁਰ is PLURAL .Since this Plural entity is a SINGLE WAVE OF THE WORD - ਗੁਰੂ
So when considered as SINGLE WAVE the word ਗੁਰ becomes as Gur with matra of Aukad and a COLLECTIVE
NOUN.
Therefore the word ਗੁਰ with matra of Aukad is always a SINGULAR COLLECTIVE NOUN.(This aspect seems to have been overlooked
by any of our preacers or scholars}


With regard to your understanding as
Above all, Siri Guru jee here is doing Sifat Salaah of Satguru jee and Satguru is only one

Would you pl clarify who is Siri Guru doing the Sifat Salaha ?
If your reference is for Guru Nanak Dev ji and other GuRu as in Human Form
then I would stronly differ.


Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

VEER KULBIR SINGH Ji,

I refer to your views as
According to Gurbani Viyakaran, ਗੁਰ should have Aunkad in the end and I have had Darshan of a Saroop where Aunkad is there at the end of ਗੁਰ. If need be, I can post a picture of this old handwritten Saroop

Does it mean that there should be no word in SGGS ji as ਗੁਰ.?
Do one see the word as ਗੁਰੂ BAANEE.? It is always Gurbaanee.

Only in one place in SGGS ji one can find the use of word Gur with matra of Aukad for BAANEE.
This is very important to understand?

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

ਗੁਰ ਜੈਸਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਦੇਵ ॥

You have written that you don't agree with Professor Sahib Singh jee's interpretation of this Pankiti. In that case, could you please interpret this Pankiti according to your intelligence?

Quote

Would you pl clarify who is Siri Guru doing the Sifat Salaha ?
If your reference is for Guru Nanak Dev ji and other GuRu as in Human Form
then I would stronly differ.

In this Shabad, Guru Sahib is doing Sifat-Salaah of Satguru jee. For the purpose of this discussion, this is all that matters. Let's not jump from topic to topic. The point I was making is that you say that Gur in this Pankiti is plural, and my question to you was that how can Gur be plural when the Shabad is doing Sifat Salaah of one Satguru?

Kulbir Singh

Please answer this question, I asked in my previous post:

If ਗੁਰ had been singular then ਜੈਸਾ would have been ਜੈਸੇ. The presence of ਜੈਸਾ proves that ਗੁਰ is singular.

Kulbir Singh

All of these posts about Viyakaran have confused me too the point where I have forgotten everything I have learnt about Viyakaran.

Rabh taras kare

Preetam Singh

VEER KULBIR JEE,

In the quote ਗੁਰ ਜੈਸਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਦੇਵ
You are considering the SAMBANDH of the word ਗੁਰ with the word
ਜੈਸਾ whereas my understanding is that the word ਗੁਰ is SAMBADHAK
to the word ਦੇਵ
In this context my understanding for the word as KARTAKARAK is PLURAL.

This is so that in Gurbanee one can see a word as Gurdev and there is no such
word as Gurudev..You can verify this from within Gurbane

.Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.s.Bagga


\

I repeat my Benti again. You say that you don't agree with Professor Sahib Singh jee's meanings. In that case, can you please post your own interpretation and show us in this interpretation how the word Gur is a plural. Then we can move forward in this discussion.

Kulbir Singh

VEER KULBIR SINGH Ji,

Pl refer to your views as
I repeat my Benti again. You say that you don't agree with Professor Sahib Singh jee's meanings

Well I said I dont agree 100% with Prof Sahib Singhi Jis interpretations.I have studied his grammar books
in detail and i found that a person of his calibre would have presented the interpretation still more clearly
with proper application of knowledge of grammar.His contribution in great and unforgetable.
It is quite possible some considerations must have been overlooked.

I have also read in detail grammar books by Joginder Singh Talwara ji.
I find that in both these grammar books the grammar of the BASIC WORD GuROO is missing and the word
Gur with matra of Aukad is not considered at all.

Nor for the Quote
ਗੁਰ ਜੈਸਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਦੇਵ .........My interpretation is that there is no other Dev like Gur as Gurjoti............


VEER KULBIR SiNGH Ji this should be very clear if any word is SINGULAR then it will certainly have its PLURAL word too.

I asked you if the word ਗੁਰ is SINGULAR then what is PLURAL for this word.You are yet to answer me.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

I studied this in great depth and is is observed that the word Gur with matra of Aukad is the REAL KEY WORD
for the whole understanding of Gurbanee.

My emphasis is concerned with the word Gur with matra of Aukad for which I have already posted thethree
references in Gurbanee.

Quote

ਗੁਰ ਜੈਸਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਦੇਵ .........My interpretation is that there is no other Dev like Gur as Gurjoti

From your interpretation it seems like you are interpreting Gur as singular but to be sure, please do the translation in Punjabi.There are no Devs like Gurus. This is what the meaning would be if you interpret Gur as plural. But in any case, let's see your interpretation in Punjabi.

Quote

I asked you if the word ਗੁਰ is SINGULAR then what is PLURAL for this word.You are yet to answer me.

It depends on the Kaarak. Normally ਗੁਰੁ is singular and ਗੁਰ is plural but ਗੁਰ is not always plural. Here are some Pankitis where ਗੁਰ (without Aunkad in the end) is singular noun:

ਮਨ ਗੁਰ ਮਿਲਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ ॥1॥

ਜਾ ਕਉ ਆਏ ਸੋਈ ਬਿਹਾਝਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਮਨਹਿ ਬਸੇਰਾ ॥

ਭਾਉ ਕਲਮ ਕਰਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਲੇਖਾਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਪੁਛਿ ਲਿਖੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

I mentioned to you before that the Aunkad from the end of a noun is removed for a number of reasons and plurality of a noun is just one of these reasons. You were making blanket statements like all non-Aunkad ending nouns are plural which is not true.

Kulbir Singh

Quote

In the quote ਗੁਰ ਜੈਸਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਦੇਵ
You are considering the SAMBANDH of the word ਗੁਰ with the word
ਜੈਸਾ whereas my understanding is that the word ਗੁਰ is SAMBADHAK
to the word ਦੇਵ
In this context my understanding for the word as KARTAKARAK is PLURAL.

I did not understand this statement at all. How does Gur become plural if it has Sambandh with Dev? You are totally ignoring the Gurmat principle that Vaheguru is one, Gurmat Naam is one and Guru too is one. Period. What do you mean to say that Gur is plural? Are you suggesting that Guru-Jyoti is not one but more than one?

Kulbir Singh

VEER KULBIR SINGH JI,

If one understands what is ONE to MANY then this can become clear.

It is Vaheguroo which is ONEas well as MANY.

Vaheguroo is ONE as SABADu and

Vaheguroo is MANY as Gur .

It is this Gur which is being refered as Gurdev .

Bhul chuk maaf

Daas

Prakash.s.Bagga

VEER KULBIR SINGH Ji,

I surprise how you take the views as ignoring the principles of Gurmati.
I observe that in understanding of Gurbanee the concept of the word
TARANG has been overlooked.

First thing you may confirm there is no word in Gurbanee as Guru -Jyoti

The proper word is JOT(i) This is a word with matra of Siharee.This is
SINGULAR and its PLURAL is JOT-ee (With matra of Biharee)

These two words refer to a ONE WAVE or MANY WAVES.of Divine
Word GuROO.

I think Gurbaanee has so far not been interprated in context of GuR JOTi
so there is problem in understanding this.

But the real message of Gurbanee is very clear that it is all JOTi and
CREATOR be known as JOTi.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

VEER KULBIR SINGH Ji,

Pl refer to your views .
You were making blanket statements like all non-Aunkad ending nouns are plural which is not true.

What shoyld be the General Rule for knowing that any word is SINGULAR or PLURAL.

One is first required to be familiar with the Common and General Rule.
Exceptions come thereafter.

My blanket statement is is for A General Rule for Knowing the word as SINGULAR or PLURAL.

So far we have considered only the words with matra of Aukad.
Words with all other matras are also SINGULAR or PLURAL What is the Rule there?
For other matras this Rule is different.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.S.Bagga

Quote

Vaheguroo is ONE as SABADu and

Vaheguroo is MANY as Gur.

The above statement is totally wrong. Guru Sahib's Naam roopi Shabad is One, Guru is One and Vaheguru jee of course is One. Please stop misleading Sangat. What do you mean by "Vaheguru is MANY as Gur" ? Does this statement make any sense? One time you say that Guru Jyoti is one and then you say that Gur is many.

Quote

The proper word is JOT(i) This is a word with matra of Siharee.This is
SINGULAR and its PLURAL is JOT-ee (With matra of Biharee)

Again this a totally wrong statement that Jotee is plural and Jot(i) is singular. Below are Pankitis where Jotee is clearly singular:

ਤਿਉ ਜੋਤੀ ਸੰਗਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥

ਜੋਤਿ ਭਈ ਜੋਤੀ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਨਾ ॥

ਜੋਤੀ ਹੂੰ ਸਭੁ ਚਾਨਣਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ ॥

I request you again to not make Viyakaran related statements without Gurbani backups.

Kulbir Singh

VEER KULBIR SINGH Ji,

I am very sure about the words being SINGULAR or PLURAL as per matra of Siharee and Biharee

You can verify this from any of Gurbanee grammar Book.Either Prof Sahib Singh ji or Joginder Singh
Talwara ji or any other Gurbanee Grammar Book.

An word fundamentally eis either SINGULAR or PLURAL .

If there is any word as SINGULAR in M/G ..There has to be corresponding PLURAL word as M/G
If There is any word as SINGULAR in F/G There has to be a corresponding PLURAL word in F/G


Is the above consideration totally wrong?

If wrong then how?

VEER KULBIR SINGH Ji,

Can you give me a little understanding about the role of Genders in
getting the meaning of the word.?

Probably this understanding may be useful in more clarity what is
all about the word as SINGULAR or PLURAL.

I look forward to your views as I consider them very useful

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.s.Bagga

VEER KULBIR SINGH Ji,

I think there is some misunderstanding in the concept of Words as SINGULAR or PLURAL.

In fact any SINGLE WORD can be either SINGULAR NUMBER or PLURAL NUMBER.

Probably there is confusion due to this understanding.

When I say the word is SINGULAR I mean to say that SINGLE word is SINGULAR NUMBER
When I say the word is PLURAL I mean to say that SINGLE word is PLURAL NUMBER

I think you are considering every word as SINGLE WORD only.

This makes the whole understanding different.

VEER KULBIR SINGH Ji you are not fully getting to my point perhaps your Gurbanee understanding is based on
consideration of Genders only. Whereas my understanding is based og Gender as well as considerations of the NUMBER
of the words as SINGULAR NUMBER or PLURAL NUMBER.
Due to this differences are bound to be there but I am sure if you also try to understand Gurbanee in context of GuR JOTi
you may have similar views .

I hope you may be getting to my point of views. My only consideration is to share the views on certain points which might have
been overlooked by our previous preachers and scholars.

Bhul Chuk Maaf

Daas

Prakash.s.Bagga

Bagga Ji,

Vaheguru Ji ka Khalsa
Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!


I requested you in other thread also, I'll request it here also. Can you please support your replies/answers with Gurbani in Gurmukhi? Its very confusing when you try to use different Gurmukhi *Matras* in Roman.

I think you will be able to communicate your message more clearly if you use Gurmukhi and also support your answers with Gurbani Tuk.

Vaheguru Ji ka Khalsa
Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

Thanks for your nice suggestion I will be more careful in this respect of presentation

Daas

Prakash.s.Bagga