Dharam Rai

I've wondered several times, but never gotten a proper answer.
Is dharam rai also part of the 8.4 million forms of life? Or is this person just randomly "chosen" by Vaheguru to determine the fate of all those as they leave this earth?

Just to clear up, I don't wish to become "Dharam Rai" one day, or wish to take on this form of life, that's if it is a form of life.

Vaaheguru Jee Kaa Khalsaa Vaaheguru Jee Kee Fatehh!

Dharam Raj is a separate entity and is not part of the life cycle.

ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਕੀਆ ਹਰਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵਕ ਨੇੜਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ।।

Dharam Raj is a creation of Akal Purakh that has been given orders to judge all of the people who come to his court.

As Veer Jee has said above, Dharam Rae is a separate celestial being/deity (devta) ordered by Vaheguru Jee to perform the task of judging and administering rewards and punishments in the realm of Dharam Khand.

ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਹੈ ਦੇਵਤਾ, ਲੈ ਗਲਾ ਕਰੇ ਦਲਾਲੀ ||
dharam raae hai dhaevathaa, lai galaa karae dhalaalee |

S/he/it is not part of the 84 Lakh Joon which is confined to this karam bhoom we can see, and exist in.

The human life form is superior to that of a devta, even devtas like Dharam Rae are desperately longing to be put in the 8.4 million life form cycle as a human so that so they can do bhagti and meet Vaheguru Jee:

ਇਸ ਦੇਹੀ ਕਉ ਸਿਮਰਹਿ ਦੇਵ ||
eis dhaehee ko simarehi dhaev |
Even the gods long for this human body.
-------------------
ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਲਖ ਜੂਨਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਉਤਮ ਮਾਣਸ ਜੂਨਿ ਭਲੇਰੇ||
chouraaseeh lakh joon vich outham maanas joon bhalaerae|
Among eighty-four lakh species of life, the human life is the best one. (Bhai Sahib Gurdaas Jee Vaars: [www.sikhitothemax.com])

Veerji,

It would be interesting to know, does Dharam Rai die? Or has it been the very same Dharam Rai since the very beginning?

That is an interesting question Veer Jeeo. As far as I am aware, Devtas are beyond normal birth and death like we humans, so I think they can exist for an indefinite period of time and therefore Dharam Rae being a Devta would not be susceptible to this. That is until they themselves, or the Khand in which they reside is destroyed/nullfied by Vaheguru Jee - as we know only Karam and Sach Khand are permanent and no devtas are residing in these Khands, they are all below these permanent topmost levels - most likely no Devtas are above Dharam and Gyaan Khand.

I can't say whether it has been the same Dharam Rai on duty since aad, or perhaps Vaheguru Jee relieved him of his duties and put another one there? Who can say? I don't think Gurbani mentions on this either, I think only a Brahmgyani who has seen all the 5 Khands could comment on this!

Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Jee has written about Dharam Rai in Unditthee Duniyaa, I will look through that chapter later on today and see if there is anything interesting to share with the sangat. If anyone else has time, it would be greatly helpful to have that chapter typed up for sangat to read on this thread.

So then how does Dharam Rai come to be? Just randomly chosen/created by Vaheguru?

About the concept of Dharam Rai changing/dieing...I'm not sure about the dieing part, but as for changing I remember once when I asked this question to Bhai Jagtar Singh Ji. I asked if Dharam Rai was part of the life forms, and he laughingly said "Do you want to become Dharam Rai in your next janam?" That was certainly not the purpose for asking him that question, though I knew he was only joking. Anyways, he then went on to mention that Dharam Rai is either a part of the different life forms, or that Dharam Rai changes from time to time. I don't remember which of these he said, but he mentioned one of them.
And now, Preetam Singh Veerji just mentioned that Dharam Rai is not part of the 8.4 million life forms, so I'm guessing that I was actually told that Dharam Rai changes from time to time...?

I don't know myself, and I haven't read about it anywhere either. So I'd appreciate if someone could perhaps find a suitable answer for this. Either from the book by Bhai Sahib, or any other reference.

Vaaheguru Jee Kaa Khalsaa Vaaheguru Jee Kee Fatehh!

Dharam Rain came into existence since man started performing actions which are not in line with Gurus Hukum.
Dharam Rai is a mere servant of Guru Sahib and does as Guru Sahib dictates. Whatever thoughts we have and whatever actions we performed outside of Naam are recorded. When we die we go to Dharam Rais court and we must face his judgement. It does not make sense to say Dharam Rai will get mukhti or is part of the life forms as his duty is to administer justice.

When Bhai Jagtar Singh Ji told you he changes over time perhaps he was telling you his judgement changes over time. For example, in Satjug if someone committed a sin the whole country was punished, in tretajug the whole city would be punished, in dwapar the whole family would be punished if an individual committed a sin, while in Kaljug the best jug in regards to punishment only the individual would be punished for committing a sin.

ਧਰਮ ਰਾਜਾ ਬਿਸਮਾਦੁ ਹੋਆ ਸਭ ਪਈ ਪੈਰੀ ਆਇ ॥੨॥
The Righteous Judge of Dharma is wonder-struck, at the sight of everyone falling at the Lord's Feet. ||2||

ਸਤਜੁਗੁ ਤ੍ਰੇਤਾ ਦੁਆਪਰੁ ਭਣੀਐ ਕਲਿਜੁਗੁ ਊਤਮੋ ਜੁਗਾ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
The Golden Age of Sat Yuga, the Silver Age of Trayta Yuga, and the Brass Age of Dwaapar Yuga are good; but the best is the Dark Age, the Iron Age, of Kali Yuga.

ਅਹਿ ਕਰੁ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਅਹਿ ਕਰੁ ਪਾਏ ਕੋਈ ਨ ਪਕੜੀਐ ਕਿਸੈ ਥਾਇ ॥੩॥
As we act, so are the rewards we receive; no one can take the place of another. ||3||

Quote
kaurs4
I don't know myself, and I haven't read about it anywhere either. So I'd appreciate if someone could perhaps find a suitable answer for this. Either from the book by Bhai Sahib, or any other reference.

In the book 'ਅਣਡਿੱਠੀ ਦੁਨੀਆ', on page 100, Bhai Sahib talks about 'ਧਰਮਰਾਇ ਦੀ ਦਰਗਾਹ'(that's the name of the chapter), on page 292, Bhai Sahib again speaks on behalf of a similar scope under the heading 'ਧਰਮਰਾਇ, ਚਿਤਰ ਗੁਪਤ ਅਤੇ ਆਵਾਗਵਨ'. Feel free to read these two chapters. I was thinking of posting them here on this thread for Sangat's convenience. Maybe if Guru Sahib, Daas will carry out the task of typing these two chapters and posting them here.

VaaheGuroo Jee Kaa Khaalsaa VaaheGuroo Jee Kee Fatheh!!!

I didn't know that, so perhaps he was talking about that.

So this punishment, are you talking about the punishment given by Dharam Rai, or the punishment given in this world?

Vaaheguru Jee Kaa Khalsaa Vaaheguru Jee Kee Fatehh!

Punishment is given to the chit ( mind, thinking) in this world and
the next.

sukhdeep singh jee,
your not making any sense,
please rephrase your post so we can actually understand what your are trying to say
i'm lost

Sukhsehaj Kaur

You mentioned how in Satyug in an individual commited a sin the whole country was punished. Were you refering to the punishment they get in this world, or the punishment they receive from Dharam Rai?

Vaaheguru Jee Kaa Khalsaa Vaaheguru Jee Kee Fatehh!

Quote
Sukhdeep Singh
Punishment is given to the chit ( mind, thinking) in this world and
the next.

Punishment is given to the astral body, the body that goes on to the next world and looks exactly like the body we are currently in. The mind can not feel pain, since it is not a physical entity, hence that is why it is called "the mind" It is the astral body that feels the pain. Keep in mind that the mind is made of five elements: lust, anger, greed, emotional attachment and self-pride. However, when the person passes away, these five elements run away, ie they no longer remain in the person's mental state. The person's mental state also shuts down, since the person is dead, so the mind also 'dies'. Without these five thieves, the mind simply would not exist.

Finally, 'ਚਿਤ' means to remember, and not mind or thinking, although it it closely linked to two.

You didn't understand my question. Although, I do agree with what Jaspreet Singh wrote.

What I was asking was, as Sukhdeep Singh mentioned:

Quote
Sukhdeep Singh
in Satjug if someone committed a sin the whole country was punished, in tretajug the whole city would be punished, in dwapar the whole family would be punished if an individual committed a sin, while in Kaljug the best jug in regards to punishment only the individual would be punished for committing a sin.

So if someone committed a sin, the whole country was punished. Was it Dharam Rai who punished the whole country because of the deed of one person, or was it the people in-charge of justice for that country? I'm asking this because, if Dharam Rai punished the whole country because of the deed of one individual, we can't say that's fair nor can it be considered just.

Vaaheguru Jee Kaa Khalsaa Vaaheguru Jee Kee Fatehh!

Vaheguru and Satguru are one and the same thing but everything beyond that are Jeev-Atmas who in their purest form are of the same substance as Vaheguru. Jakh, Kinnar, Devtas including Indra, superior Devtas e.g. Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh etc. are all life forms and the Jeev, depending on its Kamaaee can become any of these Devtas.

Indra is definitely a life-form and certainly individuals who perform certain religious tasks on Karam Bhoomis (e.g. Earth) become Indra in their next life. Sunai waali Pauris make it clear that if the Jeev wishes to be Ishar (Shiv jee), Brahma or Indra, it can do so by listening to Gurmat Naam. There are countless Brahmas, Shivas, Siri Krishnas, Indras etc. but these are not permanent life forms, albiet they are quite long life forms.

Coming back to Dharam Rai, all indications from Gurbani point towards only one Dharam Rai who judges all Jeevs from all Karam Bhoomis but still this life form is a creation and not eternal being as the Jeev is in its purest form (as in Sachkhand). Since Dharam Rai is not Vaheguru and is not a resident of Sachkhand, it has to be a life form and as such some Jeev-Atma has to fill it. This life form may be as long as the creation would last but still it is a life form and it must be occupied by some Jeev-Atma.

According to Vedic scriptures Dharam Rai is son of Sooraj Devta and Gurbani too has called Dharam Rai "Sutt-Bhaan" which literally means son of Sooraj. If this is true, then surely Dharam Rai is a life form.

Kulbir Singh

So if Dharam Rai is a life form, he too would be considered a part of the 8.4 million joons? Would the devtas, Brahman, Shiva, Vishu, etc., fall under the human life form then? Meaning that a human who reaches such a state can become a devta. Obviously this cannot apply to animals. But can it apply to Dharam Rai? If Dharam Rai is a life form, then would he, too, fall under the human life form?

I know I ask many questions. I'm just trying to understand so that it's all clear to me.

Vaaheguru Jee Kaa Khalsaa Vaaheguru Jee Kee Fatehh!

Quote

So if Dharam Rai is a life form, he too would be considered a part of the 8.4 million joons?

Not sure if they would fall under 84 Lakh joonis because as per Gurbani, these Joonis are Joonis of Medni i.e. Karam Bhoomi (e.g. Earth) whereas Dharam Rai is a life form of Dharam Khand where another life form is Jammdoots.

Quote

Would the devtas, Brahman, Shiva, Vishu, etc., fall under the human life form then? Meaning that a human who reaches such a state can become a devta.

No, they don't fall under human form. Human form is for this Earth and these Devtas reside in other realms. And yes, Human form is such a doorway from where one can go into any life form - upwards or downwards. One can become a superior Devta like Shiva or Brahma or a inferior life form like a dog or a cat.

Quote

Obviously this cannot apply to animals.

Animals fall under bhog joonis and not Karam jooni as is the case with human form. Animals cannot do Karmas to attain Mukti. This is possible only in human form,.



Kulbir Singh

kaurs4 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You didn't understand my question. Although, I do
> agree with what Jaspreet Singh wrote.
>
> What I was asking was, as Sukhdeep Singh
> mentioned:
>
> in Satjug if someone committed a sin the whole
> country was punished, in tretajug the whole city
> would be punished, in dwapar the whole family
> would be punished if an individual committed a
> sin, while in Kaljug the best jug in regards to
> punishment only the individual would be punished
> for committing a sin.
>
>
> So if someone committed a sin, the whole country
> was punished. Was it Dharam Rai who punished the
> whole country because of the deed of one person,
> or was it the people in-charge of justice for that
> country? I'm asking this because, if Dharam Rai
> punished the whole country because of the deed of
> one individual, we can't say that's fair nor can
> it be considered just.


Since the punishment was a collective punishment Im assuming it was
handed out automatically while in this world. Some might say this is not fair
to punish a whole population due to the paap of one person.But its a good practice
teaches people their actions have an effect on the whole community.
At the same time thank God this rule doesnt apply today in Kaljug. Can you imagine how hard
it would be to do Bhagati if we were accountable for other peoples sins.

JaspreetSingh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Punishment is given to the chit ( mind, thinking)
> in this world and
> the next.
>
>
> Punishment is given to the astral body, the body
> that goes on to the next world and looks exactly
> like the body we are currently in. The mind can
> not feel pain, since it is not a physical entity,
> hence that is why it is called "the mind" It is
> the astral body that feels the pain. Keep in mind
> that the mind is made of five elements: lust,
> anger, greed, emotional attachment and self-pride.
> However, when the person passes away, these five
> elements run away, ie they no longer remain in the
> person's mental state. The person's mental state
> also shuts down, since the person is dead, so the
> mind also 'dies'. Without these five thieves, the
> mind simply would not exist.
>
> Finally, 'ਚਿਤ' means to remember, and not
> mind or thinking, although it it closely linked to
> two.


The mind outside of its original state feels happy and the mind feels sad.
I dont believe mind is made of panj doot. The mind has origins in WaaheGurus jot, but is blinded
by Panj Doot and for this reason feels pain of separation, and when merges in Jot feel joy of union.
Mind enjoys both pain and joy. The biggest punishment is when the mind merges apart from WaaheGuru, great
reward is when mind merges in Naam.

That's cleared everything. Thanks!

Vaaheguru Jee Kaa Khalsaa Vaaheguru Jee Kee Fatehh!

The below is taken from the translated edition of Unditthi Duniya, translated by Bhai Jaspinder Singh Ji (Retd. Sqn. Ldr. IAF) For those that have trouble understanding the original in Punjabi, the below has been provided for their ease. The below excerpt appears from pages 111-112 in the translated edition


ਮਨਮੁਖ ਬੋਲਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਨੀ ਓਨਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਅਹੰਕਾਰੁ ॥
ਓਇ ਥਾਉ ਕੁਥਾਉ ਨ ਜਾਣਨੀ ਉਨ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਲੋਭੁ ਵਿਕਾਰੁ ॥
ਓਇ ਆਪਣੈ ਸੁਆਇ ਆਇ ਬਹਿ ਗਲਾ ਕਰਹਿ ਓਨਾ ਮਾਰੇ ਜਮੁ ਜੰਦਾਰੁ ॥
ਅਗੈ ਦਰਗਹ ਲੇਖੈ ਮੰਗਿਐ ਮਾਰਿ ਖੁਆਰੁ ਕੀਚਹਿ ਕੂੜਿਆਰ ॥…੨॥
(੯) ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ, ਮਹਲਾ ੩, ਪੰਨਾ ੯੫੦

The mind oriented know not how to conduct, so full are they of self-conceit, lust and anger.
They know not close from far impelled by greed and evil.
They delve in lot of selfish Chatter and are punished by the terrible courrier of death.
Accounting for personal misdeeds in Court-Divine in the hereafter, punished and disgraced are the false ones.
Ramkali Ki Var M.3 [950]


Unguided by the Guru, not enshrining Naam in their hearts, are always full of lust, anger and self-conceit. They speak unsavoury words of anger and pride. They have no sense of self-control nor do the ignorant-drunks know what words to use. Their unsavoury words are most out of place. Engrossed with evil and greed, their words reflect their real thinking and selfishness. Thus is wasted their entire life. They depart from the world receiving punishment from courriers of death. They are held accountable for their misdeeds in the Court-Divine and are disgraced for inability to account credibility. The falsehood loses ultimately and is held accountable.

ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ ਰੇ ਮਨਾ ਸੁਣੀਐ ਸਿਖ ਸਹੀ ॥
ਲੇਖਾ ਰਬੁ ਮੰਗੇਸੀਆ ਬੈਠਾ ਕਢਿ ਵਹੀ ॥
ਤਲਬਾ ਪਉਸਨਿ ਆਕੀਆ ਬਾਕੀ ਜਿਨਾ ਰਹੀ ॥
ਅਜਰਾਈਲੁ ਫਰੇਸਤਾ ਹੋਸੀ ਆਇ ਤਈ ॥
ਆਵਣੁ ਜਾਣੁ ਨ ਸੁਝਈ ਭੀੜੀ ਗਲੀ ਫਹੀ ॥
ਕੂੜ ਨਿਖੁਟੇ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਓੜਕਿ ਸਚਿ ਰਹੀ ॥੨॥ (੧੩)
(ਵਾਰ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮ: ੧, ਪੰਨਾ ੯੫੩)

Says Nanak, O' mind! Hearken, this true warning. The Divine shall call for accounting as per record. All the rebel defiants, with heavy debit balance of misdeeds, shall be hauled up. There the punishing angel of death shall appear. In this tight situation, lost is the mind of all clever-ness of mind.
O'Nanak! Fails the falsehood and Truth alone is ultimately triumphant.2. (13.)

Var Ramkali M.1 [953]

In the above quote Guru Nanak Sahib addresses all the mortals to imbibe true teaching of absolute Truth. There can be no scope for any doubt, if or but in this. Accounting for personal deeds of this world is a must in the hereafter, without fail. Through Dharamrai, The Lord, Himself, in the form of Dharamrai shall call for accounting from one and all. There exists the Court of Dharamrai in the hereafter. The record is available for each deed/misdeed of all there beings. All the defiants of Divine-Will, not submitting to it according to Guru's teachings, shall be hauled up by Dharamrai.

There is no escape from paying for the debit of misdeeds. The guilty will be under the firm grip of Courriers of death, Jamdoots. Nothing is of any avail, like personal wizardry or cleverness. Such is the tight situation. Falsehood stands discredited. Only the true ones and Truth shall be triumphant ultimately. These truthfull words come from Guru Nanak that must come to pass without fail. This Gurbani quotation is complete Truth that will prevail!

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਤ ਸੁਖੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਾਈਐ ਥਾਉ ॥੧॥(੧੨)
(ਸਲੋਕ ਮ: ੫, ਪੰਨਾ ੯੬੩)

Says Nanak, reciting Naam is blissful and provides for shelter in Court-Divine.1. (12.) Slok M.5 [963]

Saviour in the hereafter is Naam alone, bestowed through Guru's teaching. This is the source of bliss. To unite with Lord the long separated beings is the Emissary Guru, Himself:


ਜੈਸਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਸੁਣੀਦਾ ਤੈਸੋ ਹੀ ਮੈ ਡੀਠ ॥
ਵਿਛੜਿਆ ਮੇਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਕਾ ਬਸੀਠੁ ॥…੧॥(੧)
(ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ, ਸਲੋਕ ਮ: ੫, ਪੰਨਾ ੯੫੭)

Just as Satguru is described, so do I find. He unites with Lord the long separated ones, as Emissary of Court-Divine. Ramkali ki Var Slok M.5 [957]