Seva over Gurmat Spirituality

The other day Bhai Kulbir SIngh Ji made an interesting statement, he stated

"Seva of humanity cannot be done and shouldn't be done at the cost of Gurmat spirituality."

I was wondering what are sangats views in doing seva with those people who mock or violate Gurmat Maryada.
For example, if some Kala Afghana missionaries opened up a camp to encourage people to keep their kes would
it be ok to be part of the seva?

Bhai Randhir Singh's autobiography, the chapter "Renunciation and Baptimism" has a very good answer to this. I would try to post it here but I've only been able to find this pdf of the book:

[www.vidhia.com]

No doubt Bhai Sahib was a principled SIngh who would never associate with dodgy people.
At one time BHai Sahib was very close to Bhasuara, but eventually Bhasuara became so hinduphobic he tried to erase anything in Gurmat which he thought was related to Hinduism. Bhasuara went to the extent of removing kirtam names like Raam and Bhagautee, in Gurbani. He also believed ardas should be changed from Pritham Bhagauatee SImar Ke... to Satnam Simar ke. WHen he had such heretical views BHai Sahib completely disassociated himself with such missionary minded people. In fact, he even wrote articles refuting the claims of these like minded missionaries.
[www.dushtdaman.org]

Its sad to see modern day AKJ SInghs chose seva over maryada.

Sukhdeep Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The other day Bhai Kulbir SIngh Ji made an
> interesting statement, he stated
>
> "Seva of humanity cannot be done and shouldn't be
> done at the cost of Gurmat spirituality."

I have huge issues with this statement from Kulbir Singh - the tone of it just simply so negative ! even if it is to do with any kind of spirituality- the comment made is awafully dry.

Seva of humanity shoule be done by anyone who can - its'a noble cause -- common sense prevails here come on guys.

at the cost of Gurmat spirtuality -- a fundamental law here - no one is suggesting this anyway - no one ever has - be spiritual and do what ever you can to help the world - beleive me it won't cause you to loose your kes- sprituality or anything religious at all.

Gurmat spiritualiy can never be lost - doing seva of humanity --impossibile- and saying seva of humanity cannot be done is just ludicoruos for a Gursikh have you forgotten " eh jag sachee ke haa a kothreee""

Unlike ns44 Veer Ji, I do not find anything wrong with the statement quoted above from Veer Kulbir Singh Ji' s post. It is not as dry. It is bold. We need to understand the words and the idea wrapped in that.

I have a simple and seemingly odd question, Which GURBANI pankiti says or orders to serve HUMANITY? Please quote.

Veer Ji as you know we live in Kaljug. The world is getting further and further from Naam; thus,the weight
on the cows head is getting to heavy. Eventually the cow will collapse unless we do some thing about it.

Guru Sahib tells us we should not just be concerned with our own spirituality; instead, we should help
others on the Gurmat path as well.

In the famous "rehat maryada shabad " Guru Sahib says

ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਧੂੜਿ ਮੰਗੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਕੀ ਜੋ ਆਪਿ ਜਪੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥

Guru Sahib says he is the dust of that Gursikh who Japps naam and
does the seva of encouraging to japp naam.


Also in "Sri Sarab Loh Granth Ji", Guru Sahib says: True mantra
destroys all illusion and confusion for those who are sacrifice to True mantra . Those Bhagats ( servants of God) who recite
it and encourage others to recite it are the highest people in Kaljug.

ਸਕਲ ਭਰਮ ਪਰਹਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਹਰਿਜਨ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਸਚਿ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਬਲੀ
ਆਪੁ ਜਪਤਿ ਅਰੁ ਜਗਤ ਜਪਾਵਤਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਸਿਰੋਮਨਿ ਮਾਹਿ ਕਲੀ
Sri Sarab Loh Granth Ji


This new age mentality of just being concerned with ones own spirituality really has
no role in SIkhi.


ਕਲਿਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਭਗਤੀ ਖਟਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਉਤਮ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਾਇਆ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥
ਵਿਚੇ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਗੁਰ ਬਚਨਿ ਉਦਾਸੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੋਹੁ ਜਲਾਇਆ ॥
ਆਪਿ ਤਰਿਆ ਕੁਲ ਜਗਤੁ ਤਰਾਇਆ ਧੰਨੁ ਜਣੇਦੀ ਮਾਇਆ ॥

Veer Ji, Sukhdeep Singh Ji, did u respond to my request? I am looking for Gurbani which says about physical sewa of humanity?

Anyway, I have also concern with Gurbani you quoted. ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਧੂੜਿ ਮੰਗੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਗੁਰਸਿਖ ਕੀ ਜੋ ਆਪਿ ਜਪੈ ਅਵਰਹ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ
So, you mean, we should try to be the one, whose dust is sought after by the GURU. Why this craving? Guru Sahib has not ordered in this Gurbani to do the action of ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ to ਅਵਰਹ.

ਆਪਿ ਤਰਿਆ ਕੁਲ ਜਗਤੁ ਤਰਾਇਆ. This is again the after effect. An observation. Where is the order to help ਕੁਲ ਜਗਤੁ?

Veer Ji, I get the point you are saying. But please help me find Gurbani which says to "help" humanity.

MB Veer Ji Yes I responded to your request.

We are not seeking to give our DUst to GUru Ji, we are seeking for GUru Sahibs pleasing.
It pleases Guru Sahib for us to japnam and have others jap nam. The pangtis
I have quoted is telling us to japp naam and help others ( the world/humanity) to jap naam. This is how
we help the world. If this is not one way of serving the world then what is the point of Sadh Sangat.

ਵਿਚਿ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਸੇਵ ਕਮਾਈਐ ॥
ਤਾ ਦਰਗਹ ਬੈਸਣੁ ਪਾਈਐ ॥

ਵਿਚਿ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਸੇਵ ਕਮਾਈਐ ॥

That is beautiful pankiti. Now, we need to confirm, what is meant by ਸੇਵ, here. Is it service to humanity or a reference to NAAM. "SEV" is also used for NAAM JAPNA, we know that. I do not deny that this is reference to "service", but there is every likelihood that ਸੇਵ ਕਮਾਈਐ is for NAAM.

MB Singh Veer JI,

The original question on this thread was " Is it ok to do seva with those who violate Gurmat Maryada".
Lately I have learned not to many people really care about Gurmat Maryada. They think your a fanatic
if you mention maryada or do parchar of panthic maryada. Its just best to keep maryada to yourself and
let people follow their own way.

Associating with others, for a cause, is always a personal choice. We often differ with others. A little adjustment is possible, but we can not spoil our own SURTEE and self respect, for the sake of association. So it is better to withdraw or limit to participation only.

Bhai MB Singh has said it all. Bahut Meharbani jeeo.

Kulbir Singh

maaf karna jeeo - some further research in Gurbani as per request from MB Singh Jeeo -

let me first make it clear - That I believe the principle of bhagtee - than shaktee - seva of naam of course is highest of all without a iota of doubt- however this seva has to be so so high indeed that the Gurmuk does as mentiond by Bhai Gurdaas jee vaar 14 pauri 18:

ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਪੁਰੀ ਲਖ ਰਾਜ ਨੀਰ ਭਰਾਵਣੀ।
Fetching water for the holy congregation is equal to the kingdom of lacs of Indrapuris.

ਲਖ ਸੁਰਗ ਸਿਰਤਾਜ ਗਲਾ ਪੀਹਾਵਣੀ।
Grinding of corn (for the holy congregation) is more than the pleasure of myriads of heavens.

ਰਿਧਿ ਸਿਧਿ ਨਿਧ ਲਖ ਸਾਜ ਚੁਲਿ ਝੁਕਾਵਣੀ।
Arranging for and putting in woods into the hearth of langar (free kitchen) for the congregation is equal to the rddhis, siddhis and the nine treasures.

ਸਾਧ ਗਰੀਬ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗਰੀਬੀ ਆਵਣੀ।
The holy persons are the caretakers of the poor and in their company the humility resides in the heart (of people).

ਅਨਹਦ ਸਬਦ ਅਗਾਜ ਬਾਣੀ ਗਾਵਣੀ ॥੧੮॥
Singing of hymns of the Guru is the personification of the unstruck melody.

vaar 28:
ਪਿਛਲ ਰਾਤੀ ਜਾਗਣਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਦਾਨੁ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਦਿੜਾਏ।
The Sikh awakes in the pre-dawn hour and meditating upon Nan, he becomes alert for ablution and charity.

ਮਿਠਾ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਨਿਵ ਚਲਣੁ ਹਥਹੁ ਦੇ ਕੈ ਭਲਾ ਮਨਾਏ।
He speaks sweetly, moves humbly and giving away something by his hands for the well being of others feels happy.

And of course we cannot forget Guru Nanak Dev Jee's vand shakna principle:


ਅਣਹੋਦੇ ਆਪੁ ਵੰਡਾਏ॥ਕੋ ਐਸਾ ਭਗਤੁ ਸਦਾਏ ॥: Anhode aap vandaaye. Ko aisaa bhagat sadaaye: Share with others, even when there is almost nothing to share. Only such a rare one is called a true devotee (sggs 1384).



ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਗਾਵੈ ਗੀਤ ॥ ਭੁਖੇ ਮੁਲਾਂ ਘਰੇ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥ ਮਖਟੂ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਕੰਨ ਪੜਾਏ ॥ ਫਕਰੁ ਕਰੇ ਹੋਰੁ ਜਾਤਿ ਗਵਾਏ ॥ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੀਰੁ ਸਦਾਏ ਮੰਗਣ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਮੂਲਿ ਨ ਲਗੀਐ ਪਾਇ ॥ ਘਾਲਿ ਖਾਇ ਕਿਛੁ ਹਥਹੁ ਦੇਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਹੁ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ ਸੇਇ ॥੧॥: Giaan vihoonaa gaavai geet ...: The one who lacks spiritual wisdom sings religious songs (for the sake of earning bread). The hungry Mullah turns his home into a mosque (or he also goes to mosque for the sake of bread!). The lazy bum has his ears pierced to look like a Yogi. Someone else becomes a panhandler, and thus loses his self-respect. Someone calls himself a guru or a spiritual teacher, while he goes around begging for bread - don't ever touch their feet. One who truthfully works for what he eats, and gives some of what he has - O Nanak, he knows the path ||1|| (sggs 1245).




ਫਰੀਦਾ ਜੇ ਮੈ ਹੋਦਾ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤਾ ਆਇੜਿਆਂ ॥ ਹੇੜਾ ਜਲੈ ਮਜੀਠ ਜਿਉ ਉਪਰਿ ਅੰਗਾਰਾ ॥੨੨॥ : Fareedaa je mai hodaa vaariaa mitaa aairriaaan. Herraa jalai majeeth jiou oupar angaaraa ||22||: Says Fareed, if I hide from my friends who come to me (when I do not take the opportunity to serve when they come to my house), (then) I feel as my flesh is burning red on the hot coals. ||22

Therefore, "Vand Shaknaa" certainly does not seem to be limited to "Langar - ਲੰਗਰ" only (in English, a Langar is often indicated by many terms such as "common kitchen", "open kitchen", "free mess", "Sikh community meal", "free communal kitchen of the Gurdawaaraa", and so on). The Langar symbolizes Sikh belief in the community spirit, the duty to selflessly serve others (particularly those who are less fortunate such as poor, destitute, hungry, etc.), and the equality of all people of diverse backgrounds (regardless of family of birth, color of one's skin, caste, creed, gender, religion, rich or poor) as they all belong to the same One God. However, it appears that, nowadays, the Langar has more or less become a competition in offering of elaborate feasts to each other expecting to outdo the other for the sake of status (or showoff) with ever-expanding and pricey menu of extravagant dishes! On top of that, many times the host is seen distributing gifts (e. g., a box of Indian sweets, silver coin etc.) at the end of the Langar!

And it's not only food that a sikh should be sharing -- it's also naam virtues:

ਹਉ ਬਲਿਹਾਰੀ ਸਾਜਨਾ ਮੀਤਾ ਅਵਰੀਤਾ ॥ ਇਹੁ ਤਨੁ ਜਿਨ ਸਿਉ ਗਾਡਿਆ ਮਨੁ ਲੀਅੜਾ ਦੀਤਾ ॥ ਲੀਆ ਤ ਦੀਆ ਮਾਨੁ ਜਿਨ੍‍ ਸਿਉ ਸੇ ਸਜਨ ਕਿਉ ਵੀਸਰਹਿ ॥: haou balihaaree saajanaa meetaa avareetaa. Ihu tanu jin siou gaadiaa manu leearraa deetaa. Leeaa ta deeaa maan jin siou se sajan kiou veesarahi: I am a sacrifice to my pure friends, the immaculate Saints. This body is attached to those with whom I have shared minds. We have shared our minds - how could I forget those friends? (sggs 765).
ਜੇ ਗੁਣ ਹੋਵਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਸਾਜਨਾ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਾਝ ਕਰੀਜੈ ॥: Je gun hovani saajanaa mil saajh kareejai: If my friends have virtues, I will share in them (sggs 765).

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਜੇ ਮੈ ਹੋਦਾ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤਾ ਆਇੜਿਆਂ ॥ ਹੇੜਾ ਜਲੈ ਮਜੀਠ ਜਿਉ ਉਪਰਿ ਅੰਗਾਰਾ ॥੨੨॥ : Fareedaa je mai hodaa vaariaa mitaa aairriaaan. Herraa jalai majeeth jiou oupar angaaraa ||22||: Says Fareed, if I hide from my friends who come to me (when I do not take the opportunity to serve when they come to my house), (then) I feel as my flesh is burning red on the hot coals. ||22|| (sggs 1379).


ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਚਾਨਬੋ ॥: Maanas kee jaat sabai ekai pahchaanabo: Recognize the entire mankind as one family (Guru Gobind Singh Jee 10).

Seva is of course performed with "tun" -- " mun" - "dhun" - it's an over lapping principle - not just of one kind -

furher thoughts welcome

NS44 jeeo, all the Pramaans from Bhai Gurdaas jee's Baani refer to Seva of Guru ghar and as Bhai MB Singh has already written, such Seva is part and parcel of Gurmat Bhagti; therefore it does not prove a Hukam for Khidmate-Khalqat (Seva of humanity). Again please don't misunderstand this to mean that we are against service to humanity but the point we are trying to make is that firstly service of humanity comes naturally to Gursikhs who do Naam Seva i.e. Japp Naam and secondly, such service of humanity should be avoided that can cause a loss of Sikhi or Naam Seva.

Are you saying that there is no such worldly Seva that can result in loss of Sikhi? If no, then we don't have any disagreement and if your response is yes, then many examples of worldly service can be given, whereby one can possibly compromise on Sikhi.

Kulbir Singh

Sikhi and Seva go hand in hand. In the old days besides langar institution, Gurghars often had services available for the
people . Clinics were available ,and so were shelters to home the poor. This was all funded from dasvand.

When we do seva of serving humanity within the confines of GUrmat Maryada under the umbrella of
SIkhi ( Nishan Sahib) then this cannot be considered as Worldly seva. I find such a notion nonsense and very
offensive. Guru Har Krishan JI and Guru Teg Bahadur Sahib has shown through personal example by giving their
life for the sake of others.

ਸਾਧ ਗਰੀਬ ਨਿਵਾਜ ਗਰੀਬੀ ਆਵਣੀ।

ਮਿਠਾ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਨਿਵ ਚਲਣੁ ਹਥਹੁ ਦੇ ਕੈ ਭਲਾ ਮਨਾਏ।

ਅਣਹੋਦੇ ਆਪੁ ਵੰਡਾਏ॥ਕੋ ਐਸਾ ਭਗਤੁ ਸਦਾਏ ॥

ਘਾਲਿ ਖਾਇ ਕਿਛੁ ਹਥਹੁ ਦੇਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਹੁ ਪਛਾਣਹਿ ਸੇਇ ॥੧॥

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਜੇ ਮੈ ਹੋਦਾ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤਾ ਆਇੜਿਆਂ ॥ ਹੇੜਾ ਜਲੈ ਮਜੀਠ ਜਿਉ ਉਪਰਿ ਅੰਗਾ

Sharing whatsoever we have or a part of it at least (ਕਿਛੁ ਹਥਹੁ ਦੇਇ ), with others, irrespective of their belief or caste (ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ ਪਹਚਾਨਬੋ ॥): is a Gurmat ideal. Let all the poor or hungry come to a sikh, he is not supposed to say no, till the last grain. A spiritual person, should behave like that. This is a visible character or "chemical" property of a Gursikh. But this is not our composition. This is not the mission.

NAA TOON AVEN VASS BOHUTA DANN DE (You cannot be appeased, by giving so many donations to the poor)

Guru Gobind Singh Sahib Ji Maharaj makes it very clear in 33 Swaiyes:

Sev Kari In Hee Ki Bhaavat Aur Ki Sev Suhaat Naa Ji Ko ll
Daan Dayeo In Hee Ko Bhalo Ar Aan Ko Daan Naa Laagat Ni Ko ll

Serving Gursikhs and giving to Gursikhs has been praised in the above beautiful Pangtiyaan.

MB Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ਸਾਧ ਗਰੀਬ ਨਿਵਾਜ
> ਗਰੀਬੀ ਆਵਣੀ।
>
> ਮਿਠਾ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਨਿਵ
> ਚਲਣੁ ਹਥਹੁ ਦੇ ਕੈ ਭਲਾ
> ਮਨਾਏ।
>
> ਅਣਹੋਦੇ ਆਪੁ
> ਵੰਡਾਏ॥ਕੋ ਐਸਾ ਭਗਤੁ
> ਸਦਾਏ ॥
>
> ਘਾਲਿ ਖਾਇ ਕਿਛੁ ਹਥਹੁ
> ਦੇਇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਹੁ
> ਪਛਾਣਹਿ ਸੇਇ ॥੧॥
>
> ਫਰੀਦਾ ਜੇ ਮੈ ਹੋਦਾ
> ਵਾਰਿਆ ਮਿਤਾ ਆਇੜਿਆਂ
> ॥ ਹੇੜਾ ਜਲੈ ਮਜੀਠ ਜਿਉ
> ਉਪਰਿ ਅੰਗਾ
>
> Sharing whatsoever we have or a part of it at
> least (ਕਿਛੁ ਹਥਹੁ ਦੇਇ ),
> with others, irrespective of their belief or caste
> (ਮਾਨਸ ਕੀ ਜਾਤ ਸਬੈ ਏਕੈ
> ਪਹਚਾਨਬੋ ॥): is a Gurmat ideal. Let
> all the poor or hungry come to a sikh, he is not
> supposed to say no, till the last grain. A
> spiritual person, should behave like that. This is
> a visible character or "chemical" property of a
> Gursikh. But this is not our composition. This is
> not the mission.
>
> NAA TOON AVEN VASS BOHUTA DANN DE (You cannot be
> appeased, by giving so many donations to the poor)


A compound is a substance with a particular ratio of atoms of particular chemical elements which determines its composition, and a particular organization which determines chemical properties. Compounds are formed and interconverted by chemical reactions.

therefore to conclude:

Both concepts - seva of humanity and Gursikhe naam kamaii - are an over lapping concept and relate as a chemical reaction within the composition.

Ha Ha, thank you Veer ns44 Ji, for the nice brief conclusion.

Bhul Chuk Maaf Hove Ji.

Quote

Both concepts - seva of humanity and Gursikhe naam kamaii - are an over lapping concept and relate as a chemical reaction within the composition.

In Sikhi there is only one concept that that is the concept of Prabhu-Prapati through Gurmat which in turn is Naam. Seva of humanity and other such concepts are nice but not Hukam as Gurmat concepts e.g. Naam Simran, Gurbani Sevan, Rehit are. Seva of humanity is a side-effect that a Gursikh naturally executes being a Sikh. There is hardly any Gurbani Pankiti that talks about Seva of humanity.

Kulbir Singh

Quote
Seva of humanity is a side-effect that a Gursikh naturally executes being a Sikh.

I should not say 'side effect' jio rather a by product to be correct.

Baaki Guru Sahib are very clear that at the end of the day all those good deeds done in this world are taken away by Jamdoots when souls leaves this world:

ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਪਾਖੰਡ ਜੋ ਦੀਸਹਿ ਤਿਨ ਜਮੁ ਜਾਗਾਤੀ ਲੂਟੈ ॥
It's only seva of Naam which gives one a pass of elite's club towards Sachkhand way. As Bhai Kulbir Singh Jee says it is best to stay focus on Naam and seva of this world will be executed natuarally as a by product.

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਊਤਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਮੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Quote
Kulbir SIngh
There is hardly any Gurbani Pankiti that talks about Seva of humanity.

BHai Sahib, If this is true then how do you explain the following moral lesson
from Sri Dasam Granth.

Note: We have already established from a previous thread that Kalka Deva symbolically refers to Akal Purakh.

ਤਾ ਤੇ ਕਰੌ ਦੀਨ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ ਹੋਇ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੩੧॥
Chraritro Pakhyan

Deen refers to the poor and serving them GUru Sahib gets pleased. If Guru Sahib did not cater to the poor why did he set up langar institution for those who were poor in spirit ( humble)and for those who were poor in wealth. In such institution not only do people take care of their bodily needs most importantly they take care of their spiritual needs through the company of Naam Abhyiaas Gurmukhs.

Why does Guru Sahib say sharing ones food with those who are less fortunate is the true trade ( sacha sauda)?
If serving the sick and suffering is of no use then why did GUru Harkrishan Sahib Ji go to Delhi and help those with leprosy? WHen we help those
with the grace of Guru we cannot consider such service to be of no avail.

ਰਹਣੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਦੇਵਾ ॥
Rehan N Paavehi Sur Nar Dhaevaa ||
The angelic beings and demi-gods are not permitted to remain here.

ਊਠਿ ਸਿਧਾਰੇ ਕਰਿ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵਾ ॥੧॥
Ooth Sidhhaarae Kar Mun Jan Saevaa ||1||
The silent sages and humble servants also must arise and depart. ||1||

ਜੀਵਤ ਪੇਖੇ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥
Jeevath Paekhae Jinhee Har Har Dhhiaaeiaa |
Only those who meditate on the Lord, Har, Har, are seen to live on.

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Saadhhasang Thinhee Dharasan Paaeiaa ||1|| Rehaao ||
In the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, they obtain the Blessed Vision of the Lord's Darshan. ||1||Pause||

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BHai Sahib, If this is true then how do you explain the following moral lesson
from Sri Dasam Granth.

Note: We have already established from a previous thread that Kalka Deva symbolically refers to Akal Purakh.

ਤਾ ਤੇ ਕਰੌ ਦੀਨ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ ਹੋਇ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੩੧॥
Chraritro Pakhyan

Deen refers to the poor and serving them GUru Sahib gets pleased. .

The Pankiti has been totally misinterpreted. It's the Baala (unmarried girl born out of fire generated by fighting between Devs and Danavs) who is saying that she would do Seva by becoming a Deen i.e. humble and then surely Kaalka Dev would get pleased. This Pankiti does not (even remotely) talk about service of humanity.

Kulbir Singh

Bhai Jasjit Singh jeeo, you are correct; by-product is a better term than side-effect. Thanks for clearing that. Great Pankitis Bhai MB Singh jeeo.

Kulbir Singh

ਰਹਣੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਹਿ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਦੇਵਾ ॥ ਊਠਿ ਸਿਧਾਰੇ ਕਰਿ ਮੁਨਿ ਜਨ ਸੇਵਾ ॥੧॥
ਜੀਵਤ ਪੇਖੇ ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਇਆ ॥ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

Veer Ji, I have always wondered while reading this Gurbani shabad. Guru Sahib tells in this Shabad, all have to go. Kings businessmen all will depart a day. And the Shabad starts with a category of people, who belong to a pious category. Saintly people will also go, a day. And even those who were busy with SEVA, have to move for.

But strangely, there is a category, who don't die.

What I wondered, is why Guru Sahib has used a nice activity (SEVA) added to nice people, to ultimately show their departure from the earth. And why these nice people along-with their nice activity are different from the second category which does not die.

Should we say, there is difference of LIFE and DEATH, between these two activities? It seems too large a difference. But the SHABAD says so.

As you say, GURU SAHIB HIMSELF KNOWS THAT.

Bhai Kulbir SIngh Jeeo,

You are basically saying the only function of the "House of Gurmat" is to jaap naam. Meaning the
house of Nanak is strictly a house of Bhagti. If this is your belief how is it any different then the Nanaksari
belief. They have completely removed the miri element out of Sikhi. They have removed the nishan sahib, shasters,
and Langar institution out of the "House of Gurmat".

You previously said

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Kulbir Singh
In Sikhi there is only one concept that that is the concept of Prabhu-Prapati through Gurmat which in turn is Naam. Seva of humanity and other such concepts are nice but not Hukam as Gurmat concepts

Are you not denouncing the miri concept of Sikhi by such statements. Refer to bani in Bachitar Natak. Guru Sahib states the house of Nanak was
for the propagation of Naam, removal of tyrants , and protection of saints. Any person who seeks shelter in the" House of Nanak" has good fortune and should be provided for.

The quote I stated has nothing to do with pleasing devtas. Kalka refers to WaaheGuru the same way Shiva can refer to WaaheGUru.

Everyday we recite the following verse

ਦੇਹ ਸਿਵਾ ਬਰੁ ਮੋਹਿ ਇਹੈ ਸੁਭ ਕਰਮਨ ਤੇ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨ ਟਰੋਂ ॥

Shiva here does not refer to consort of Parvati; instead, Shiva refers to WaaheGuru Jis jot, and shub karam refers to good deeds. Guru is doing benti to never hesitate from doing good deeds in helping others. Fighting for the oppressed isn't this serving humanity?

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You are basically saying the only function of the "House of Gurmat" is to jaap naam. Meaning the
house of Nanak is strictly a house of Bhagti.

No I am not saying that. I am saying that Seva of world is not a direct Hukam but a natural by-product of doing Gurmat Bhagti which includes Naam, Gurbani, Rehit and Gurmat Seva.

There seems to be an understanding or comprehension problem here. I have stated numerous times that Seva of world is not a direct Hukam but a by-product of doing Gurmat Bhagti and that Gurbani only sanctions Gurmat Bhagti (defined above).

Quote a Gurbani Pramaan that proves that Seva of world is a direct Hukam; otherwise stop the Vichaar.

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The quote I stated has nothing to do with pleasing devtas. Kalka refers to WaaheGuru the same way Shiva can refer to WaaheGUru.

Everyday we recite the following verse

ਦੇਹ ਸਿਵਾ ਬਰੁ ਮੋਹਿ ਇਹੈ ਸੁਭ ਕਰਮਨ ਤੇ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨ ਟਰੋਂ ॥

Shiva here does not refer to consort of Parvati; instead, Shiva refers to WaaheGuru Jis jot, and shub karam refers to good deeds. Guru is doing benti to never hesitate from doing good deeds in helping others. Fighting for the oppressed isn't this serving humanity?

Totally unnecessary Updesh when no one is saying that Shiva does not mean Vaheguru. It is as if you want me to say that Shiva does not mean Vaheguru. Did I say anything about Kalka being Devta or not being Vaheguru? Can you now please explain why you quoted this irrelevant quote here when this quote has nothing to do with Seva of World? The quote was totally unrelated to the Vichaar going on.

Kulbir Singh

Kulbir Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Both concepts - seva of humanity and Gursikhe naam
> kamaii - are an over lapping concept and relate as
> a chemical reaction within the composition.
>
> In Sikhi there is only one concept that that is
> the concept of Prabhu-Prapati through Gurmat which
> in turn is Naam. Seva of humanity and other such
> concepts are nice but not Hukam as Gurmat concepts
> e.g. Naam Simran, Gurbani Sevan, Rehit are. Seva
> of humanity is a side-effect that a Gursikh
> naturally executes being a Sikh. There is hardly
> any Gurbani Pankiti that talks about Seva of
> humanity.
>
> Kulbir Singh


Kulbir Singh Jeeo -- if that is the case than why has Harimandar Sahib opened it's doors to all corners north /south/east/west of this world - and welcome all -?

What is the menaing of " Sarbat da bhalla" in your view?

It's crystal clear without any need for Gurbain Parmaans that Guru Sahibs Golak is for the Gareeb -- " Guru dee golak gareeb da mooo" ? do you agree disagree? how in majority of the Gurdwaras -- this Golak haas served as divional purpose as Sikhs attached to it have formed their own Gurdwaras starting from jaat paat Gudwaras then jathebandee associated Gudwaras with this GOLAK. - Therefore a failure at present worldwide if you compare the sarbat da bhalla concept for the Guru Jee's Golak. I doubt if we could count on our two hands Gurdwaras serving the principle of Guru Dee Golak Gareeb da moo - i.e serving humanity and the poor in this world.

It's not about being nice - its' about taking the principle of sarbat daa bhalla to the world -- or serving this world how else will that be achieved - if not thru the prinicple of service/seva of humanity how else will you bring the world to Sikhee ?

Get serving people - Khalsa will rule -- with naam kamai as well as the physcial much needed effort without which we can't even live:

[www.khalsaaid.org]