Which Mata Ji gave patashe?

I have always thought Sri Mata Sahib Kaur Ji was the giver of patashe in Vaisakhi 1699 and thus the mother of the Khalsa.

A website is claiming that it was in fact Sri Mata Ajeet Kaur Ji who gave the patashe and is calling Mata Ji 'Mother of the Khalsa' in this respect. Of course all of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's blessed wives are our mother but I have always known Mata Sahib Kaur Ji to be especially called the mother of the khalsa as a result of her role in the original amrit sanchar.

On a side note I personally have no problem believing that Guru Dashmesh Ji Maharaj had more than one wife - Mata Ajeet Kaur Ji, Mata Sunder Kaur Ji and Mata Sahib Kaur Ji, however I thought Mata Sahib Kaur Ji as mother of the khalsa was an accepted fact.

I would appreciate it if the more learned sangat could shed some light. Who was the giver of the patashe and thus the Mother of the Khalsa?

Guru Gobind SIngh Ji only had one wife. Sikhi is not a polygomaus religion.
Mata Sunder Kaur and Mata Sahib Kaur is the same person. If Guru Saihb
told us to have only one wife then why would he have another wife.

sukhdeep singh, everybody knows that dasam patsah had 3 wives. mata ajit kaur mata sundar kaur and mata sahib kaur...

go ask any katha vachak and they will tell u that..

vaheguroo

I actually agree with Sukhdeep Singh Jee

And no, I'm not going to ask any kathavachak about it.

From what I have read, from this site only.

Mata Sahib Kaur and her family wanted her to marry Guroo Gobind Singh Jee, but he was already married.

Thus she was given the title, the mother of Khalsa. Guroo Sahib had one wife, and with her, Guroo Sahib were given 4 Sahibzaade.

That's ridiculous, Guroo Sahib had 3 wives ?, that's the last bit of the puzzle you guys want to give the folks, who talk nonsense about Dasam Granth & Charitropakhyaan.

I totally refuse to believe this, regardless of whoever wants to give contrary evidence on this website.

The mother of Khalsa is clearly Mata Sahib Kaur, as stated in every Amrit Sanchaar.

As for the giver of patashe, it was most likely mata jee, but could have been some one else. I'm not wise enough to comment on that.

On a side note from this daas, let's keep the three wives thing out of here, it's hideous for us to even think, forget discuss.

upkaar singh

ur totally right...the mother of khalsa is Mata Sahib Kaur...

i cant remember this so someone plz correct me if im wrong mata ajeet kaur had 3 sons and mata sundar kaur had one son...so Guru Gobind Singh jee gave the khalsa to Mata Sahib Kaur...

im sure Bram Giani Bhai Randhir Singh has written on this issue...


dont get me rong.....ive always wondered why dasam patsah would have three wives...ive never been given a clear reason...but from what ive listened to in katha and from reading pothis...is that guru sahib had three wives

maybe we should get some of the elder gursikhs to comment on this topic such as Kulbir Singh or Bijla Singh?

ਗੁਰਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਾ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਹੁ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਕਰਣੀ ਕਾਹੇ ਧਾਵਹੁ ॥

Do those deeds which the Guru has ordained. Why are you chasing after the Guru's actions?



Guru Jee told us to have one wife so we will have one wife, why do we care what guru jee did? They told us what to do so we do that.

Most historic granths mention Mata Jeeto Ji putting in patasay as Mata Sahib Kaur started living at Anandpur Sahib in 1701. Sri Gur Katha mentions Guru Sahib himself putting in patasay which I think is more plausible. Guru Rakha

I only mentioned about three wives as the website I am talking about (the link to which was deleted by admin) suggests that part of the reason for the supposed change to Mata Sahib Kaur Ji is by those who want to say maharaj only had one wife. I was saying that this is not a problem to me but regardless the claim that Mata Ajeet Kaur Ji gave the patashe is quite surprising.
Maharaj having more than one wife does not mean Sikhs can as in Bhai Gurdas Vara it is clarified that sikhs must have only one spouse.

The site which is suggesting this cites Gurpartap Sooraj Granth and Tawarikh Guru Khalsa, the question is which sources site Mata Sahib Kaur Ji as the giver of patashe and for what reasons has it been decided to be Mata Sahib Kaur Ji by most of the panth at this time.

Mata Sahib Kaur Ji was given the status of Mother of Khalsa when she expressed the desire to have a child. This to me is clear enough that she was married to Guru Sahib otherwise she could not make such a request. Anyways, I won't get into it. But I do not think Mata Jeeto Ji participated in the Amrit Sanchaar as only the Guru has the right to prepare the Amrit and give it to a Sikh. I will check Sri Gur Katha again to make sure. Maybe some of the recent sources give this credit to Mata Sahib Kaur Ji but I as far as I know most mention Mata Jeeto Ji's name. Guru Rakha

Bijla Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mata Sahib Kaur Ji was given the status of Mother
> of Khalsa when she expressed the desire to have a
> child. This to me is clear enough that she was
> married to Guru Sahib otherwise she could not make
> such a request. Anyways, I won't get into it. But
> I do not think Mata Jeeto Ji participated in the
> Amrit Sanchaar as only the Guru has the right to
> prepare the Amrit and give it to a Sikh. I will
> check Sri Gur Katha again to make sure. Maybe some
> of the recent sources give this credit to Mata
> Sahib Kaur Ji but I as far as I know most mention
> Mata Jeeto Ji's name. Guru Rakha

Amrit is not the water nor the patasey; Amrit is Naam which is given by Guru Sahib alone. SO why couldnt
Mata Sahib Kaur Ji put the patasay in the water. Before Gurbani/Naam is recited the water in the batey is just water, and the
pataasey are just patasey. Many old fashion people deny Mata Ji participating in Amrit Sanchar because they believe
such women shouldnt be eligible to take part in such ceremonies.

gsingh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Guru Jee told us to have one wife so we will have
> one wife, why do we care what guru jee did? They
> told us what to do so we do that.

Every Gursikh who strives to live a life in accordance to Gurmat ( Guru Sahib)
cares what Guru Sahib did. The reason being we learn through their example, so if history fabricates
a story about their life which contradicts Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji then we can easily discredit such stories.

When the Hadith ( life and teachings of Muhammad) was written it was written through oral tradition. Many Muslims wanted
to be part of this document as it would go down in history so they made up stories about the encounters with Muhammad
Sahib. Muslims were smart enough to get a group of scholars who worked collectively to approve stories which seemed
valid and reject stories that contradicted the Quaran. Unfortunately, we are not as smart nor have we taken the same initiative. We dont have any shame in calling our respectful father as polygomaus , and we justify it by saying because so and so " Baba " said so.

good post sukhdeep singh jee

Quote

Amrit is not the water nor the patasey; Amrit is Naam which is given by Guru Sahib alone.

Then what was the need to prepare sweet “water”? Why couldn’t Guru Sahib just give Naam?

Quote

SO why couldnt Mata Sahib Kaur Ji put the patasay in the water.

She was not there in 1699 so she couldn’t. Name a source from 18th century that names Mata Sahib Kaur Ji and I will look into it.

Quote

Before Gurbani/Naam is recited the water in the batey is just water, and the pataasey are just patasey.

Water is water, bata is bata and patasay are just patasay. No significance or value to them since Naam is the only Amrit. Right? Missionaries can use a guy like you. Find me a source that states Mata Ji put patasay before Guru Sahib started reciting Gurbani. And remember it has to be Mata Sahib Kaur as you claim it.

Quote

Many old fashion people deny Mata Ji participating in Amrit Sanchar because they believe such women shouldnt be eligible to take part in such ceremonies.

Don’t give it any twist. It is not about bibis being in Panj Pyare. Stick to the topic and stop your name calling. According to you Bhai Randhir Singh, Sant Jarnail Singh etc were all “old fashioned” and you are the only “modern” one. Guru Rakha

Bijla SIngh Jeeo,

You are getting to excited and jumping too to many conclusions. As usual you are twisting my words are around to stir controversey. I simply stated Amrit is Naam while the water and pataasay are just the physical parts of the Sanchar so there would be no harm for the mother of KHalsa to put patasay in water.I have never once said taking physical amrit is not important. Physical Amrit is the only way to get mukhti. All I said the main element of AMrit is Naam which comes from Guru Sahib so dont twist my words around. WHen parents give birth to a child both father and mother take part in the birth. How in the world can the mother of Khalsa not be there on the day Khalsa was born. What makes her the mother then?

Both Sri Guru Granth Parkaash and BHai Chaupa Singhs Jis rehatnama put Mata Sahib Kaur in the AMrit Sanchar.


"According to you Bhai Randhir Singh, Sant Jarnail Singh etc were all “old fashioned” and you are the only “modern” one. Guru Rakha"



Please state where I have stated BHai Randhir SIngh Ji was old fashoined or please state where BHai Randhir Singh Ji mentions Mata Sahib Kaur Ji did not put patasay in batey. Please restrain from putting words in my mouth.

Quote
Bijla Singh
Mata Sahib Kaur Ji was given the status of Mother of Khalsa when she expressed the desire to have a child. This to me is clear enough that she was married to Guru Sahib otherwise she could not make such a request. Anyways, I won't get into it. But I do not think Mata Jeeto Ji participated in the Amrit Sanchaar as only the Guru has the right to prepare the Amrit and give it to a Sikh. I will check Sri Gur Katha again to make sure. Maybe some of the recent sources give this credit to Mata Sahib Kaur Ji but I as far as I know most mention Mata Jeeto Ji's name. Guru Rakha

Now some clarity is beginning to emerge. It may well be that it was Mata Ajeet Kaur Ji who gave the patashe yet this does not take away from Mata Sahib Kaur Ji being the Mother of the Khalsa. This seems to make sense. It seems then perhaps it was simply because of Mata Sahib Kaur Ji being given status of mother people just started assuming it was also her who gave the Patashe. I couldn't agree more with the point about Mata Ji expressing desire for a child.

You are the one who is gearing towards taking this topic to women in Panj Pyare not me. Birth of a child analogy is not even remotely related to Khalsa Panth because Khalsa was not physically born in 1699. It was pargat and established then. Sikhs went through a transformation. Status of the Mother could be given at any time. Are you referring to Sri Guru Granth Parkash by Piara Singh Padam?

Quote

Please state where I have stated BHai Randhir SIngh Ji was old fashoined or please state where BHai Randhir Singh Ji mentions Mata Sahib Kaur Ji did not put patasay in batey. Please restrain from putting words in my mouth.

You stated that those who “deny Mata Ji participating in Amrit Sanchar because they believe such women shouldnt be eligible to take part in such ceremonies”. This is not true. You are taking this towards women in Panj Pyare which was not advocated by either Bhai Randhir Singh nor Sant Jarnail Singh. Were they “bahmans”? Or maybe anyone who doesn't agree with you is a "bahman" as you are claiming in your personal text message. Was any woman called in to put patasay during Bhai Randhir Singh’s time? Mata Ji putting in patasay and women being in Panj Pyare are two different topics. Sri Gur Katha states that Guru Sahib himself put patasay. This doesn’t mean women cannot participate in Amrit Sanchaar.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh

In which way is this thread bringing chardee kala to Sikhee??