Gossip / Ninda

Found this article on sikhnet

A woman repeated a bit of gossip about a neighbour.

Within a few days the whole community knew the story. The person it concerned was deeply hurt and offended. Later, the woman responsible for spreading the rumour learned that it was completely untrue. She was very sorry and went to a wise old sage to find out what she could do to repair the damage.

"Go to the marketplace," he said, "Purchase a bag of feathers". Then on your way home, drop them one by one along the road." Although surprised by this advice, the woman did what she was told.

The next day the wise man said, "Now, go and collect all those feathers you dropped yesterday and bring them back to me."

The woman followed the same road, but to her dismay the wind had blown all the feathers away. After searching for hours, she returned with only three feathers in her hand.

"You see," said the old sage, "It's easy to drop them, but it is impossible to get them back.

So it is with gossip.

It doesn't take much to spread a rumour, but once you do you can never completely undo the wrong.

Gossiping is an addiction. if you get into this dirty habit, its hard to break out of it, its even harder if your Sangat (the people who you hang around with "chill" with) are also big gossipers, and love knocking people down.

Slander is similar to gossip (very very similar) but its mainly done out of Jealousy (eerkha), of maybe somebody's success, fame, looks etc, or even their wealth and other materialistic things. It happens simply because "we can't take it" or it could be done out of hatred or simply disliking some due to their views or ideas...whatever the reason for slandering, its not a good habit and Gurbani clearly tells us the consequences...

Siri Guru Granth Sahib Jee Says:

jis a(n)dhar chugalee chugalo vajai keethaa karathiaa ous dhaa sabh gaeiaa ||
One whose heart is filled with malicious gossip, is known as a malicious gossip; everything he does is in vain.

one day on his travels, guru nanak dev jee stopped at a fort for rest. while resting, he became immersed in naam. some children came to play around him, but he was so immersed he didn't even notice them. they were naughty children, and because he was not paying attention to them, they sewed his eyes and nose shut and tied his hands! when guru sahib came back to the world, he found himself tied up. he walked to the nearest door and asked if someone could please untie him and open his eyes. a woman opened the door and seeing his state, took him inside and helped to untie him and unstitch what was sewn up. when taking out the stitches, she had to use her teeth to cut them, and her tilak transfered to guru sahib's head, leaving hers smudged. when guru sahib came out of the house, the neighbors saw him and thought they had been intimate. because of this, they started to spread rumors and she became spurned in the community. even her husband turned against her. she came to guru sahib and asked for his help. guru sahib told her that the next day, the gate of the fort would be sealed, and only her hand could open it. when the people in the fort found the gate sealed, they came to guru sahib and asked for his help in opening it. he said the gate would only open at the hand of an innocent and pure woman. all of the women in the fort came forward to try to open it, but the gate stayed sealed. finally, the woman that had helped guru sahib came forward. everyone laughed at her, thinking of the gossip they had heard. even her husband and family scolded her, asking her not to shame them further. but when the woman touched the door ring, the gate came open easily. suddenly, the people who had scorned her due to gossip fell at her feet, feeling bad for what they had done.

- from Dabizan-i Mazahib, 1645

I came across this pauree today, it is very hard hitting

ਪਉੜੀ||
ਜਿਨੀਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਹਰਿਨਾਮਧਨੁਨਖਟਿਓਸੇਦੇਵਾਲੀਏਜੁਗਮਾਹਿ||
Those who do not become Gurmukh and earn the wealth of the Lord's Name, are bankrupt in this age.
ਓਇਮੰਗਦੇਫਿਰਹਿਸਭਜਗਤਮਹਿਕੋਈਮੁਹਿਥੁਕਨਤਿਨਕਉਪਾਹਿ||
They wander around begging all over the world, but no one even spits in their faces.
ਪਰਾਈਬਖੀਲੀਕਰਹਿਆਪਣੀਪਰਤੀਤਿਖੋਵਨਿਸਗਵਾਭੀਆਪੁਲਖਾਹਿ||
They gossip about others, and lose their credit, and expose themselves as well.
ਜਿਸੁਧਨਕਾਰਣਿਚੁਗਲੀਕਰਹਿਸੋਧਨੁਚੁਗਲੀਹਥਿਨਆਵੈਓਇਭਾਵੈਤਿਥੈਜਾਹਿ||
That wealth, for which they slander others, does not come into their hands, no matter where they go.
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਸੇਵਕਭਾਇਹਰਿਧਨੁਮਿਲੈਤਿਥਹੁਕਰਮਹੀਣਲੈਨਸਕਹਿਹੋਰਥੈਦੇਸਦਿਸੰਤਰਿਹਰਿਧਨੁਨਾਹਿ||੮||
Through loving service, the Gurmukhs receive the wealth of the Naam, but the unfortunate ones cannot receive it. This wealth is not found anywhere else, in this country or in any other. ||8||


There is also a sakhi on Bhagat Kabeer jee nindya/gossip getting done, he was seen holding green bottles. May someone could please upload the sakhi jee

Bhein JI, Never ever heard this Sakhi. How about other Sakhis from the same source? Guru Sahib could not notice the children and then sewing of eyes and nose, seems something surpising !

i don't know if he didn't notice of if that's just the words of the writer. i think he was probably so in bliss that he simply didn't care.

the story seems a bit odd. can anyone confirm this story from a sikh source?

Bhain jeeo, I never heard of this Saakhi before. Guru Sahib is Great!

If it is coming from Dabistaane Mazahib, it was probably narrated to the writer by some Gursikh, when he had darshan of Sikh Sangat.

Kulbir Singh

Some who love to gossip through cleverly says things like its fine to "gossip" if its the truth. I'm sorry but i think this still counts as gossip. Yes if someone is doing bad which will effect the sangat, then that person needs to be giving warning(s) and then as a final resort sangat should be warned. However if someone is dhilla and is ruining their own jeevan then it is wrong to gossip about such a person.

bhagat kabeer jee had a neighbor who used to gossip about him all the time. he was jealous of kabeer jee's elevated status due to his kamai, and wanted to bring kabeer jee down through slander.
one day this neighbor died. when kabeer jee heard of it, he seemed sad. many people came to him and asked why he was sad. they said he should be happy, because now the slander would stop. kabeer jee told them that the neighbor had been washing kabeer jee's sins, and now that he was gone, there was no one to do the job.



ਗਉੜੀ ॥
Gauree:

ਨਿੰਦਉ ਨਿੰਦਉ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਲੋਗੁ ਨਿੰਦਉ ॥
Slander me, slander me - go ahead, people, and slander me.

ਨਿੰਦਾ ਜਨ ਕਉ ਖਰੀ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥
Slander is pleasing to the Lord's humble servant.

ਨਿੰਦਾ ਬਾਪੁ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਮਹਤਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Slander is my father, slander is my mother. ||1||Pause||

ਨਿੰਦਾ ਹੋਇ ਤ ਬੈਕੁੰਠਿ ਜਾਈਐ ॥
If I am slandered, I go to heaven;

ਨਾਮੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਮਨਹਿ ਬਸਾਈਐ ॥
the wealth of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, abides within my mind.

ਰਿਦੈ ਸੁਧ ਜਉ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਹੋਇ ॥
If my heart is pure, and I am slandered,

ਹਮਰੇ ਕਪਰੇ ਨਿੰਦਕੁ ਧੋਇ ॥੧॥
then the slanderer washes my clothes. ||1||

ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰੈ ਸੁ ਹਮਰਾ ਮੀਤੁ ॥
One who slanders me is my friend;

ਨਿੰਦਕ ਮਾਹਿ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਚੀਤੁ ॥
the slanderer is in my thoughts.

ਨਿੰਦਕੁ ਸੋ ਜੋ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਹੋਰੈ ॥
The slanderer is the one who prevents me from being slandered.

ਹਮਰਾ ਜੀਵਨੁ ਨਿੰਦਕੁ ਲੋਰੈ ॥੨॥
The slanderer wishes me long life. ||2||

ਨਿੰਦਾ ਹਮਰੀ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
I have love and affection for the slanderer.

ਨਿੰਦਾ ਹਮਰਾ ਕਰੈ ਉਧਾਰੁ ॥
Slander is my salvation.

ਜਨ ਕਬੀਰ ਕਉ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਸਾਰੁ ॥
Slander is the best thing for servant Kabeer.

ਨਿੰਦਕੁ ਡੂਬਾ ਹਮ ਉਤਰੇ ਪਾਰਿ ॥੩॥੨੦॥੭੧॥
The slanderer is drowned, while I am carried across. ||3||20||71||

Here is Wikipedia definition of Gossip.

Gossip is idle talk or rumour, especially about the personal or private affairs of others. It forms one of the oldest and most common means of sharing (unproven) facts and views, but also has a reputation for the introduction of errors and other variations into the information transmitted. The term also carries implications that the news so transmitted (usually) has a personal or trivial nature, as opposed to normal conversation.

In the last decade, gossip has been researched in terms of its evolutionary psychology origins.[1] This has found gossip is an important means by which people can monitor cooperative reputations and so maintain widespread indirect reciprocity.[2] Indirect reciprocity is defined here as "I help you and somebody else helps me". Gossip has also been identified by Robin Dunbar an evolutionary biologist as aiding social bonding in large groups.[3]

The term is sometimes used to specifically refer to the spreading of dirt and misinformation, as (for example) through excited discussion of scandals. Some newspapers carry "gossip columns" which detail the social and personal lives of celebrities or of élite members of certain communities.[citation needed][dubious – discuss]

It seems to help understand the above Shabad of Bhagat Ji. That is some moderate view. Ninda (if done for us) helps to keep us aware of our faults, so chances to improve upon. We will never know about our faults, if somebody is not going to tell us. ਹਮਰੇ ਕਪਰੇ ਨਿੰਦਕੁ ਧੋਇ ॥੧॥
I think, Bhagat Ji, is not simply trying to look Divine and Uncorcerned about the practicalities of this issue. He is making a socio-psychological as well as after life analysis of "Gossip Tradition."
AS indicated in the Wikipedia definition; that is also a means of social binding. I know of situations; when we avoid any concern about the third party; simply on the pretext of avoiding Ninda. Why so?

I am confused again. Help please.

gurbani tells us that the nindak takes the sins of those he slanders upon himself. i think this is what bhagat jee is referring to. for sikhs, knowing this helps take away the sting of slander and gossip, which can hurt a lot.


ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਧੇ ਸੁਧਿ ਨ ਕਾਈ ॥
The blind self-willed manmukhs have no understanding at all.

ਆਤਮ ਘਾਤੀ ਹੈ ਜਗਤ ਕਸਾਈ ॥
They are the assassins of the self, and the butchers of the world.

ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਰੁ ਉਠਾਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਮਜੂਰੀ ਭਾਰੁ ਪਹੁਚਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੪॥
By continually slandering others, they carry a terrible load, and they carry the loads of others for nothing. ||4||


as far as social bonding is concerned, i think it makes the nindak and the listener closer, like sharing a secret. but in gurmat terms, i think slander must pollute both the speaker and listener. when someone shares ninda with us, we should cut them off so we're not "bonded" with such a manmukh.

When I spoke of bonding, I was mainly refering to bonding with the third party i.e. whose Ninda is do be done. Why we are not concerned about problems, issues, weaknesses, errors, omissions of our fellow brothers and sisters? Why not to create an open and free system. We keep on increasing the gaps among ourselves, to avoid Ninda. When we avoid Ninda (listening to errors of one of our own brothers) we avoid listening about his issues. We do think about others and make our preceptions about them, yet we are not ready to talk about them, because that amounts to Ninda. Hypocracy?

Practically, I see this hypocracy, as one of the reasons, for lost affection within groups and among groups of we, the Sikhs.

Na Ko Berry nahi Bigaana. All are dear to me. All are close to me. If so, why not listen to the issues of others and do a little "NINDA" of them.

I think, that is allowed, if by doing so, we do not lose our Concern and Affection for them and our own Self as a Gurusikh.



Ha Ha, enough for today.

creative criticism, discussed face to face, is different from ninda, i think.

Quote

creative criticism, discussed face to face, is different from ninda, i think.

may be, it is called so. Nevertheless, it starts with gossip. Criticism is there, though creative.

I also read somewhere that when you slander someone, you transfer your bhagti onto them, meaning your bhagti lessons and they get your good karmas or something like that.

Slandering is washing somebody's sins and putting them on your own head.

What if somebody treats you bad and you are hurt and you talk about it to a friend because you are emotionally hurt and if you say that this person was real mean to you...is that considered slandering? I don't think so, but would like to hear all you people's thoughts on it.

Thanks..

my understanding of slander is that it's speaking lies or misinformation about someone. so if you're telling the truth about what someone did, it's not slander. it is, however, gossip.

No it isn't gossip, because gossip is information that isn't true.

If somebody treats you bad and you need to discuss it with someone, it is not slandering or gossiping cos both of those acts aren't proven truth. It's what is just heard or bla bla..

Read the technical meaning of gossiping. It derogatory talks which isn't proven true. But if you discuss something done bad done to yourself or anyone else and there's proof of it, it's basically the truth. Not malicious gossip or slander.

I think slander and gossip when it's done on purpose to make somebody else look 'bad'....or just place hatred comments because of other issues, such as jealousy....

what's the "technical" definition?

the dictionary definition is as follows:

gossip-
1. Rumor or talk of a personal, sensational, or intimate nature.
2. A person who habitually spreads intimate or private rumors or facts.
3. Trivial, chatty talk or writing.
4. A close friend or companion.
5. Chiefly British A godparent.

nothing about it being false, only that it's talk of a personal, sensational, or intimate nature. so yea, even if you're spreading the "truth" about someone behind their back, it's still gossip.

if someone can give a dictionary/mahan kosh definition of ਚੁਗਲੀ it might help us for assessing it's place in sikhi.

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੪ ॥
Shalok, Fourth Mehl:

ਜਿਸੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਤਾਤਿ ਪਰਾਈ ਹੋਵੈ ਤਿਸ ਦਾ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਹੋਵੀ ਭਲਾ ॥
One whose heart is filled with jealousy of others, never comes to any good.

ਓਸ ਦੈ ਆਖਿਐ ਕੋਈ ਨ ਲਗੈ ਨਿਤ ਓਜਾੜੀ ਪੂਕਾਰੇ ਖਲਾ ॥
No one pays any attention to what he says; he is just a fool, crying out endlessly in the wilderness.

ਜਿਸੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਚੁਗਲੀ ਚੁਗਲੋ ਵਜੈ ਕੀਤਾ ਕਰਤਿਆ ਓਸ ਦਾ ਸਭੁ ਗਇਆ ॥
One whose heart is filled with malicious gossip, is known as a malicious gossip; everything he does is in vain.

ਨਿਤ ਚੁਗਲੀ ਕਰੇ ਅਣਹੋਦੀ ਪਰਾਈ ਮੁਹੁ ਕਢਿ ਨ ਸਕੈ ਓਸ ਦਾ ਕਾਲਾ ਭਇਆ ॥
Night and day, he continually gossips about others; his face has been blackened, and he cannot show it to anyone.

ਕਰਮ ਧਰਤੀ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਕਲਿਜੁਗ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੇਹਾ ਕੋ ਬੀਜੇ ਤੇਹਾ ਕੋ ਖਾਏ ॥
The body is the field of action, in this Dark Age of Kali Yuga; as you plant, so shall you harvest.

ਗਲਾ ਉਪਰਿ ਤਪਾਵਸੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ਵਿਸੁ ਖਾਧੀ ਤਤਕਾਲ ਮਰਿ ਜਾਏ ॥
Justice is not passed on mere words; if someone eats poison, he dies.

ਭਾਈ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਨਿਆਉ ਸਚੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਕਾ ਜੇਹਾ ਕੋਈ ਕਰੇ ਤੇਹਾ ਕੋਈ ਪਾਏ ॥
O Siblings of Destiny, behold the justice of the True Creator; as people act, so they are rewarded.

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਉ ਸਭ ਸੋਝੀ ਪਾਈ ਹਰਿ ਦਰ ਕੀਆ ਬਾਤਾ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਏ ॥੧॥
The Lord has bestowed total understanding upon servant Nanak; he speaks and proclaims the words of the Lord's Court. ||1||

looks to me like gossip is the same as eating poison.

guess journalists/news reporters are slanderers then if they write up about an evil act that took place...

hmm let's say....this girl was raped by this person...evidence found...the person who raped her committed a hienous act...(however you spell that, im not going to correct spelling, late at night, too sleepy, lazy to look up)...but hey wait a second, did this writer just do nindaya of a rapist.....

or...

your kid comes home, with a ripped shirt, bruises, and he tells you a bunch of boys from school beat me up because of....yada yada reason, ....anyways YOUR child is innocent, and you as the parent say that the boys who did this were really bad......now I woudn't call such a statment nindaya or gossip.....you get my point?

Nindaya is malicious slander, most likely things that aren't even the truth.

So let's say, you go to class and you did shit bad on your test, and your teacher takes you into her office and tells you of how BADLY you did.....does that make your teacher your slanderer,......don't think so, i think the teacher was very kind to point out to the student of their faults, so that the student is able to improve and get better marks next time around.....

if somebody picks your fault and tells you about it, IT'S a good thing, because they are teaching you to become better at what you aren't.

That's my perspective,......

To me slander is straight putting someone down to hurt them on purpose out of jealousy, envy, hatred and bla bla such feelings/thoughts.......

It can't be gossip, if you need to speak to somebody about something that happened and it wasn't appropriate on 'x's part. For example, you go to work and someone harasses you. That's a violation of work ethics, and such an act would need to be reported to your Supervisor/Manager. Such a report, would not be considered slander/gossip, because it's an issue that needs to be resolved and that was the appropriate action needed to get things fixed. It would be foolish to ignore something like that if one thinks that "I don't want to slander/gossip by telling my Manager of what this person said today at work to me, even though it wasn't right, I'll just stay quiet and let it pass by my nose, because I'm not a slanderer and I don't want to slander .

It wouldn't be considered talking about this 'x' person behind their back as you write a complaint to your Manager about the event that took place. It's just called doing what you gotta do to make things right and every body deserves to be working in a safe, respectful work environment. Nothing wrong in complaining about somebody's inappropriate statements/actions to the head of authority to get this person on track.

I guess it can be gossip if you speak about somebody's life, to people when really none of it is any of your business. But if somebody has treated you so wrong that you need to speak to someone about it, so that you can get over it and put your mind at peace by resolving any problems that it caused you, then that isn't gossip or slander, it's pretty much like counseling.

If somebody swears in your face, that's straight slander for sure...duh....if you 'the one who got sworn at went and told somebody about it and said things like this person was so horrible to me by swearing at me and was saying all ill words to me, when i didn't even do anything bad to them., then that ISN'T slandering,

Okay I'm tired now - peace.