Jeeonwala crushed in debate with Panthik Singhs in Toronto

The saroop of Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj at Sri Darbar Sahib, Amrisar is lareedaar.

are you sure they use pad-ched saroops in DSGMC gurdwaras? i would be surprised if they did. every historic gurdwara that i know of uses lareevaar.

BJ Singh jeeo,

Quote

Was listening to Katha by Giani Sant Singh ji Maskeen some time back. Giani ji gave an example that ice & rainfall form into flowing rivers. These rivers usually merge in the sea. Several streams too originate from the rivers and make there own way. As long as streams stay attached with the main course, they too flourish but once they get CUT-OFF from the main source, sooner or later they Dry-up.

I am not sure what you are referring to as "main course" but for me the "main course" is Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee. If we get cut-off from the true Guru, we will dry up.

As far as I know, most historical Gurdwara Sahibaan have the true saroop of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee but if some Gurdwara Sahibaan does not have the true form of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee, Gursikhs should avoid holding samagams there. We should never give back to Guru Sahib. Again, this is my personal opinion but I know many Gursikhs who hold this opinion.

Kulbir Singh

historical gurdwaras under SGPC and majority of other gurdwara under SGPC have laarvaar prakash.
DSGMC don't prakash laavaar saroops for some reason.

All youth must make steps to learn laarvaar gurbanee paath it is very important, there is a lack of paathis in the west.

if DSGMC doesn't keep prakash of larreevaar sarooops in their gurdwaras, how does AKJ do samagams there? i went to AKJ programs at five different gurdwaras in delhi, and all of them must have had prakash of lareevaar saroops, otherwise we wouldn't have held programs there. so do they just keep these saroops in sukhasan the rest of the time until AKJ comes around? seems pretty strange to me.

singhbj Wrote:
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>
> I attended Delhi Akj dushehra program, ask
> organisers or keertanis, did DSGMC let them
> replace the pad-ched swaroop at Historical
> Gurudwara's ?
>
> Most of the Charhdikala Akand keertani's performed
> there without hassels.
>

This needs to be clarified. Delhi smagam (like any other smagam in India) is always held with the sacha-saroop of Guru Granth Sahib ji. Akhand Kirtani Jatha held its last years Delhi smagam like previous years in the hazori of larivaar saroop. Lakhi-shah vanjara hall had larivaar saroop parkash like any other year. I have just had this confirmed from the main smagam organizers of Delhi.

You are right about one thing. The jatha does request that Guru Granth Sahib ji's true form be prakash at their kirtans at even historical gurdwara sahibs. What is wrong with this?

Please be polite and not spread wrong information in sangat.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Amritvela ji,

As per my knowledge all historical Gurudwara's in Delhi do prakash of pad-ched swaroop of Sri Guru Granth Sahib jeeo.

All Granthi ji's in Delhi will clarify that.

Anyone who goes to a historical Gurudwara or watches live telecast of Gurbani from Delhi can tell you that.

If it's true that they change swaroop for Akj program then why don't Akj insist that they have Larrivar swaroop in the first place. ( 24/7, 365 days a year) ?

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

"Amritvela" has confirmed with akj singhs in delhi about Larivaar saroop. now you are saying why they don't insist on larivaar parkash. it is as if you want to badmouth akj, this way or that way. you wrote in some post that you are interested in brahmgian. this is not how you will get brahmgian. relax buddy!

singhbj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Amritvela ji,
>
> As per my knowledge all historical Gurudwara's in
> Delhi do prakash of pad-ched swaroop of Sri Guru
> Granth Sahib jeeo.
>
> All Granthi ji's in Delhi will clarify that.

-------------------------------------------------------

singhbj jio,

You are probably correct about Delhi prabhandak committee using the pad ched of Guru Granth Sahib ji. How does this make it is correct?



> Anyone who goes to a historical Gurudwara or
> watches live telecast of Gurbani from Delhi can
> tell you that.
>
> If it's true that they change swaroop for Akj
> program then why don't Akj insist that they have
> Larrivar swaroop in the first place. ( 24/7, 365
> days a year) ?


The Akhand kirtani jatha is a panthik jathebandhi. The Jatha has a strict stand on the form of Guru Granth sahib ji. To have to persuade you or argue that larivaar is the Guru-ordained saroop is very unfortunate.

Again, it is true that the jatha held its smagam like always in the hazori of the true saroop of Guru Granth sahib ji.. I humbly suggest you speak to the Delhi gurdwara committee yourself and find out why they dont parkash the true Larivaar saroop as they do at Harmandar sahib, Sri darbar sahib. I cannot speak for them. Also, the jatha does not have a policy where they can force their stands and rules on other committees. We can only practice our belifes as a jathebandi.

I humbly suggest you look into contacing the Delhi gurdwara committee and let the sangat know why they dont parkash the true Guru form of Guru Granth sahib ji.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Bhagauti ji,

Cool down.

On Akj REQUEST Dsgmc replaces the swaroop for a day or couple of days without any problems.

That shows Dsgmc don't have a clear stand altogether.

So then why not persuade them to have Larrivar swaroop full time.

I am not a part-timer, what is right must be right, always !

You are under the impression that Akj's visit Historical Delhi Gurudwara's only during Akj programs, then please do a Reality Check !

Day to day there is no Larrivar Prakash, have confirmed it by calling one of the Granthi ji's at Gurudwara Bangla Sahib.

Now that Dsgmc are accomodating Akj for reasons, better known to them.
Then why not Akj use this leverage to install Larrivar swaroop if they are genuinely concerned.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

BJSingh jeeo,

Many years ago, when Vedanti jee was the jathedar of Siri Akal Takhat Sahib, we in form of a small Jatha met him and requested him to install laridaar saroop of Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee in all historical Gurdwara Sahibaan and Takhat Sahibaan. He told us that all Takhat Sahibaan already have parkash of the Laridaar Saroop and most historical Gurdwara Sahibaan as well. He said that a letter has been issued by SGPC to all granthis of historical Gurdwara Sahibaan instructing them to have parkash of only laridaar saroop. We have seen this letter with our own eyes.

As far as I know, AKJ Singhs have always been trying to install the Laridaar Saroop on the throne. The good thing is that Taksali Singhs and other like-minded Panthik Singhs too are in favour of this. I am sure AKJ in Delhi must have tried to get laridaar saroop installed in all historical Gurdwara Sahibaan.

Another thing I want to clarify is that I did not say anywhere that we should not go for darshan of historical Gurdwara Sahibaan if Laridaar Saroop is not Parkashed there. What I said was that we should do all our samagams in the hazoori of Laridaar Saroop only. If all of us insist on this, then effortlessly, the Laridaar Saroop will become prevalent again.

Daas,
Kulbir Singh

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

Kulbir Singh ji,

Thanks for clearing your stand, i was not pointing at anyone in particular.

I just want to know that the Larrivar swaroop placed by Akj has Raag Mala or not ?

Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh

BJ Singh jeeo,

Quote

I just want to know that the Larrivar swaroop placed by Akj has Raag Mala or not ?

Yes it does have Ragmala as per hukam of Panth.

Kulbir Singh

Thanks, i just spoke to someone inside Dsgmc and they don't have a problem.

In fact this guy was in favour of original swaroop and Granthi ji at Gurudwara Bangla Sahib also supported.

Now does Akj India or Delhi want to work on it and build consensus ?

My heartiest congratulations to Sukhvir singh and Gurmander singh ji for taking on this gurnindak.
He has been humbled.This has happened with blessings of Guru sahib.Keep up the good work.
One milestone achieved many more are there.

A singh had some question on parkash of Dasam Granth sahib.

Dasam granth was in Parkash at akal takhat till 1944. Its parkash was lifted in 1944 by SGPC.
Mohan Singh nagoke was President of SGPC and also akal takhat jathedar at that time.Before lifting
parkash an akhand path of Dasam Granth sahib was held at akal takhat.

So maryada of over 200 years was changed. But takhat outside Punjab would not agree as they did
not fall under SGPC and considered such an act as sacrilege.

Regarding the photogarph of austrian painter it is worth to mention that second granth in parkash
is Dasam Granth sahib. Dasam Granth was always in parkash alongside SGGS ji in all Gurmattas
held during Dal khalsa and Maharaja rule.When processions were taken out during Maharaja's rule
both Granths were in Parkash on elephants.

Guru Piyare Inder Singh Jio,

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Quote
Dasam granth was in Parkash at akal takhat till 1944. Its parkash was lifted in 1944 by SGPC. Mohan Singh nagoke was President of SGPC and also akal takhat jathedar at that time.Before lifting parkash an akhand path of Dasam Granth sahib was held at akal takhat. So maryada of over 200 years was changed. But takhat outside Punjab would not agree as they did not fall under SGPC and considered such an act as sacrilege. Regarding the photogarph of austrian painter it is worth to mention that second granth in parkash is Dasam Granth sahib. Dasam Granth was always in parkash alongside SGGS ji in all Gurmattas held during Dal khalsa and Maharaja rule.When processions were taken out during Maharaja's rule both Granths were in Parkash on elephants.

Regardless of your assumptions, Panth made clear cut decision on Dasam Granth parkash. Sri Akal Takhat Sahibs' hukamama is very straight forward on this issue. Denying Panth's decision and Sri Akal Takhat Sahib Hukamnama on this issue will not make us better Sikhs than Kala-Afghana lobbyist Jeeonwala, who is also denying the same Hukamnama. Please avoid stirring the Dasam Granth controversy.

With Regards,
Daas
Jasjit Singh

Regardless of your assumptions, Panth made clear cut decision on Dasam Granth parkash. Sri Akal Takhat Sahibs' hukamama is very straight forward on this issue. Denying Panth's decision and Sri Akal Takhat Sahib Hukamnama on this issue will not make us better Sikhs than Kala-Afghana lobbyist Jeeonwala, who is also denying the same Hukamnama. Please avoid stirring the Dasam Granth controversy.
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I am a little surprised at your post.I had only given history of Dasam Granth at akal takhat.Historical facts 200 cann't be swept aside by rhetorics.

What hukamnama we are referring to.If you are referring to Hukamnama of 2008 that is vague and sangat is trying it to be elaborated further.Many mistakes are committed by humans who occupy this seat. For example there was Hukamnama by vedantifor not summoning any ex jathedar of akal takhat.That has been set aside as conditions dictated.

At takhats main podium is for display of weapons and parkash of SGGS ji to side.

Kulbir Singh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Excellent issue raised by you, Veer BJ Singh jee.
> There should be a standardized Dasam Granth. The
> spellings of words and order of baanis, all should
> be standardized (if it is not already done). If
> someone can shed some light on this, it would be
> appreciated.
>
> Kulbir Singh

Bhai sahib ji

Dasam granth is already standardized by sodhak committee in 1897.

Quote
Inder Singh
Regarding the photogarph of austrian painter it is worth to mention that second granth in parkash
is Dasam Granth sahib.

OR it is a Sri Akhand Path Sahib going on along with rauls of Sri Japji Sahib.><
Seriously, its just a painting. You cannot validate parkash of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib by just using a painting as an evidence.Neither, you or me can prove that is Sri DG Sahib or Sri Jap Ji Sahib pothi.

Quote
Inder Singh
I am a little surprised at your post.I had only given history of Dasam Granth at akal takhat.Historical facts 200 cann't be swept aside by rhetorics.

In this phorum all of us are pro-Sri Dasam Granth, and accept it as work of Sri Guru jis. Dass will love to see more discussions on Sri Guru jis bani.

But the argumentative attitude will cause further . Pushing ones arguments/views/ideology will only cause unnecessary drama.Neither will the other parties sense your sincerity for a genuine discussion

Morakhpan di khimma bakshni Bhai Inder Singh ji....

Chota veer

Inder singh Wrote:

>
> Dasam granth is already standardized by sodhak
> committee in 1897.

unfortunately, this standardized version is not the only one being printed. add to that various gutka sahibs with different spellings, etc... it's very difficult to know which is the right version.

it is a Sri Akhand Path Sahib going on along with rauls of Sri Japji Sahib.the finger smiley
Seriously, its just a painting. You cannot validate parkash of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib by just using a painting as an evidence.Neither, you or me can prove that is Sri DG Sahib or Sri Jap Ji Sahib pothi.

===========================================================================================

I apologize for any harsh words written by me inadvertently.it was established practice to do parkash of Dasam Granth sahib alongside SGGS ji in all gurmattas.John Malcolm who witnessed last Gurmatta of sikhs in 1805 wrote about that in his book" Sketch of sikhs".

[patshahi10.org]

When the chiefs and principal leaders are seated, the Adi-Granth and Dasama Padshah ka Granth are placed before them. They all bend their heads before these scriptures

Unquote

Before that a British statesman Charles wilkins visited Patna sahib Gurudawara in 1781.He also mentions Dasam granth being read there in his article " The seeks and college at Patna'

I agree that we should not write something that is not authentic but once we have historical evidence for something we should not ignore that.There are scholars who have significant reasearch on this subject.

inder veerji, please don't think i'm saying anything against Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, because i'm not. that's not even a question for me.

however, europeans who met with sikhs in the 1700s and 1800s said a lot of things. they said that Baba Banda Singh Bahadur was Guru. they said that sikhs drank alcohol and took opium. they said that muslims who became sikhs were required to eat pork at amrit sanchar. they said sikhs raided villages and stole all of the wealth.

(read "Siques, Tigers, and Thieves" for more info)

should we believe any or all of this? if it's true, then clearly many sikhs of that time were not following guru sahib's hukam. if it's false, than anything europeans have written must come into question.

do you see where the confusion comes here?

i think it's important to go with Akal Takht Sahib's hukamnama in this and other contentious issues.